Side Plate to Siler Lock Bolt Placement

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rootnuke

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I have read the chapters on the side plate, sideplate bolts and the lock in both Alexanders book and Dixons. I have yet to find exactly where or how one bolts the side plate to the lock.

From what I can tell I would drill and tap into the front of the lock under the spring between the barrel and rod channel for the forward bolt, but what about the rear top bolt?

All the books seem to say is inlet the side plate, the I see the holes drilled into the stock then "automagically" the lock gets mounted.

As you know I don't ask questions without picture representation, so here goes...

side_plate_bolt_placement_lock_to_stock_notation_web.jpg


side_plate_bolt_placement_lock_to_sideplate_notation_web.jpg


Thanks again for everyones help and advice. :D
 
Looks like you have a pretty good handle on the locations from the pictures. I like my top bolt to go through the breechplug right behind the barrel if possible. Makes for a good solid hookup with the whole setup. This same bolt is usually just hidden by the cock when in a totally uncocked position. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
ok, once again I have gone through all this, went back into the shop and made a discovery. On page 69 of Dixons The Art of Building a Pennsylvania Longrifle there is a picture which shows lock bolt position on the lock.

Do I just take that flash pan piece off and drill/tap it?
or
Do I leave the flash pan piece on and drill/tap all the way through the flash pan piece and into the lock plate itself?

If the bolt was tapped into the lock plate for both bolts the bolts would be hidden by the mainspring and the cock.

As for the forward bolt I would remove the mainspring and drill/tap the plate itself?

This question reminds me of one of my favorite sayings...

There is no such thing as a stupid question, however there are inquisitive idiots. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
ok, so to get this in my brain straight....

Flash Pan = the piece secured by a flat head screw to the bridle plate

Bridle Plate = is the whole flat plate that which all parts of the lock are mounted.

What that being said, here are my two questions devided between the front side plate bolt and the rear side plate bolt;

FRONT SIDE PLATE BOLT:
I can drill and tap all the way throught for the front side plate bolt into the lock bridle which is in issence the whole lock plate for the lock.

REAR SIDE PLATE BOLT:
There is a part which is screwed to the bridle being the flash pan. If you look at the bottom photo regarding this next question...Are you saying to drill into the piece between the flat head screw and "D" all the way through and at my discression partially into the bridle plate then tap it? But not tap it to breach the outside of the bridle, just as far as the hole is drilled.
 
Ok a lock
Consists of a lock plate "everything mounts to this
The pan of which is welded or screwed to the bridle is then attached to the lock plate ,in you case with 1 screw just in front of where you have your back screw hole marked with a green dot.
Where you have the back green dot on the back by the cock is called the bridle.
The pan is only the part where you will load flash powder".
All flint locks have a pan however not all flint locks have a bridle

You can drill all the way through the lock plate, which is where you have the front screw hole marked in green

The
 
This link is to the method I have used to locate and install the lock screws.
Some of it won't apply to you as I notice you have both screws in the sideplate. Thats, ok but it restricts where you can place the holes on the lockplate.
As the screw holes in the lock plate exist, you will have to modify my method somewhat.
INSTALLING LOCK SCREWS

To me, the part you are going to drill/tap the holes in is what I call the Lockplate.
A BRIDLE to my way of thinking is best described by thinking of a horses bridle. It holds the bit in place and provides support to both sides.
A Bridle on a gun lock does the same thing. The bridge like piece of metal which goes over the tumbler and provides a hole for the tumblers outer axle is the bridle. It is screwed to the Lockplate.
The outer fork on the Silier locks pan, which supports the outer hole for the Frizzen is also called a bridle. Note that in both of these cases the bridle provides additional support for something.
The Olde Flintlocks only had a large screw for the Frizzen to pivot on. In later years, the "bridle" was added to give strength to the frizzen screw.
 
On the siler lock above the bridle un-screws from the lock plate completely the pan is attached to it not the lock plate as is with other types of locks.
 
Captchee: I suppose your interpretation could be as good as mine.
I always thought of the area your refering to as being just a part of the pan, and this was just one way of attaching the pan to the lockplate.
If I was going to apply more horse terms to lock parts, could this be called a saddle style pan? ::
 
Let's back up here just a tad if possible. Before you drill anything, we have to be SURE of where this bolt is going to go so we don't hit the barrel or the RR hole.

Here is how I do it:

1: Have the barrel in & pinned & the tang fully in & fitted.

2: Have the lock fully inletted. Lay the side plate on the rifle where you want ti to go & draw a line around it & take the plate away.

3: I drill a measuring hole down thru the barrel channel just about where I think the Front lock bolt will be because I want to know EXACTLY how much wood I have between the barrel & the RR channel.

4: I drop a small wire with a tiny "L" into the hole & pull it up inside the RR hole so it catches on the edge of the RR channel. Then I take a exacto knife & I scribe a line where it comes thru the barrel channel, then lift it out. That shows me just exactly how much wood I have to drill in.

5: I have a lil gauge I made from a piece of 3/8" x 3/8" key stock & I lay it across the top of the barrel channel, then drop the lil rod down to the barrrel channel & lock it. This tells me the depth of the barrel channel, then slide it Outside to the sideplate area, hole it flat across the barrel channel & I mark the bottom of the rod, this is where the barrel channel bottom is looking from the outside.

6: Now I lay the lil wire beside this line I just made & line up the scribe line with the gauge line & mark the top of the lil "L" on the wire. Now I can See the amount of wood I have to drill thro.

7: I have marked the sideplate outline so I can now see where the hole is going to hit on the plate, hopefully it is where I want it, if not I have to adjust the plate or make a new plate slightly altered to accomodate the screw going true.
We will say this one is correct & go on.


8: Do the same on the Lock side & mark it. Now I know exactly where I can drill & not hit the barrel or RR channel.

9: I clamp the side plate & lockplate in place with a small "C" clamp.

10: I centerpunch a dot & drill a 3/32" hole in the lock plate so I know where it will be correct according to my measurements previously made.

11: I centerpunch & drill the side plate with a 3/32" drill bit, same as above.

12: I now go to the drill press & I drill the hole thru all of them with the correct sized bit to make the 8-32 THREADS.

13: I remove that drill bit & drill the correct sized hole for the shaft of the 8-32 bolt but I measure & set a drill stop on the bit so I do not hit the side plate & stop about 1/8" of it just to be sure.

14. Now take the 8-32 tap & I tap it all the way thru using the holes I just drilled as a guide. This way I KNOW I have the bolt hole being threaded just exactly as I will need for the bolt to go in easily.

15: When I am done with this, I take the tap out, then I usually drill same hole thru the lockplate & the wood (but NOT the lock) and use a bit about 1/32" larger than the 8-32 sized bit & this gives me a lil clearance on the front bolt shaft.

Now, you usually have a lil room to move the hole around on the front of the lock, as it is hidden by the frizzen spring. The ideal place is right on the Inside of the bend, but I have had to move it a lil from there occasionally.

I highly suggest you use the lil 3/32" pilot hole as this keeps the bit from wandering off the lockplate .


There is probably 492 different ways of doing all of this, this is just a way I know that workd rather than guessint where the hole will come out at on the other side & insuring you will not have a screw in the middle of the RR channel.

Also, I have had times I had to make a new sideplate & alter it just a tad to get the bolt in the corec area between the barrel & RR hole.

Another thing I will mention is I do all of this with the lockplate strripped except for the flashpan. (or call it whatever you want)

I didn't have this wrote down, so I hope I got all of it in the correct order. If I missed something, please chime in. :winking:
 
Birddog6: Sounds good so far, but what rules do you use to locate the rear lock screw?
Inquiring minds want to know.
 
You guys need to get your terminology straight before someone makes a mistake after reading instructions to do one thing and ends up doing it to the wrong part. What you are calling a bridle is acually the bolster. The bridle is the part that goes over the tumbler and sear and supports those parts. The bolster is what you will drill into. The lock plate is self explanitory, it is the plate everything is attached to.
 
There is a lot going on in the area where you are working right now. One good screw up here will cost you a new lock, a new piece of wood and possibly rebreeching the barrel.

I believe I would sit down and study the names of the parts I was describing before I went any farther. The labels have not changed for a couple of hundred years and doing so now is becomming very confusing. There are no saddles, widgets or dinguses on a flintlock action.

All instructions are void until uniform parts labels are agreed on!

What does it say in our ML terms section?
 
Wick: I agree with that.... Only one bridle on the flintlock & it is supporting the tumbler. The bolster is where the rear lock bolt threads into.
 
You're right on that BD6, but the extension of the pan that braces the outboard side of the frizzen is also referred to as a bridle.
 
I have done up a little diagram pointing out all the parts for the Siler Large Lock based on this discussion thread.
However there is a part called "fly" and ....well I hate to say it but I don't know where my fly is.
I will label the "bolster" and I believe it to be the piece which is an part of the pan. In looking at the bottom photo that would be the ~1.5" bar, held by one screw with a "D" stamped in it.

siler_large_flintlock_front_view_notation_web.jpg

siler_large_flintlock_back_view_notation_web.jpg


The green square indicates my understanding of the "bolster" the green circle is about where one drill and tap for the top sideplate screw.
siler_large_flintlock_back_view_bolster_notation_web.jpg
 
Drilling the rear lock bolt:

Basically we have it all still set up from the front hole, & marked & etc.

1: I lay a straight edge across the tang of the rifle looking from the top & I draw a line from rear sideplate hole mark to rear lockplate hole mark, that I have previously marked for the lockplate bolt.
If it is at a slight angle I then mark the bolster where I want the screw to go & centerpunch it & drill thru it with a 3/31" drill bit, and slightly at the appropriate angle if necessary. The bolt is supposed to be straight across but once in a while it doesn't turn out that way. This is why it is Most Important to use a pilot hole & also to tap the bolts thru the rifle, as this way you are sure of bolt alignment with threads.

2: I now put a small "C" clamp on top of the breech of the barrel & down to the trigger area to insure the tang doesn't lift & make sure the breech stays in the stock. Now I drill the hole for the lockbolt with the appropriate size hole for the 10-32 screw THREADS, drilling through the sideplate, thru the tang and stop, all of this using a drill point attachment on the drill press.

3: I stop 1/2 way thru the tang & turn it over & drill from the lock bolster side. The reason I do this as when I drill thru the tang sometimes it has hit the tang at a slight angle & it is possible the bit has wandered off center just a tad... thus I will drill thru the other side & see how the holes match up & they will be close if not perfectly in line.

4: If the holes don't meet exactly, DO NOT work the bit through the bolster of the lock as you will egg shape the hole you need to thread. You should be very close if you used the drill point & good sharp bits, as it takes little pressure to drill this. If you use dull bits & lots of pressure, that is where ya get into trouble.

5: Now change bits & drill for the shaft of the 10-32 screw from the sideplate to the lock with a Drill Stop on the shaft of the drill, stopping it 1/8" of the lock bolster.

6: Remove the drill & tap the 10/32 hole through the sideplate, stock, tang & thru the bolster. Now we know we have bolt allignment, even if slightly at an angle, we know it will go thru.

7: Take out the tap, drill the same hole from the sideplate to through the stock, tang, up TO 1/8" of the lock again (using a drill stop) with a 1/32" larger sized drill than the 10-32 bolt shaft. This will give you clearance & remove all possibility of any stress on the lock bolt & lock inlet from recoil from the rifle thru the tang hole.

8: Now we have both bolts drilled & clearance of the bolts & they are all threaded in, but we have excess threads. Run them all the way in & take a permanentt marker & mark the threads, take the screws out & cut off the appropriate amount, file smooth & refit them. It is important the front lock bolt not go past flush with the face of the lock as if it does it will push the frizzen spring out & possibly break it. The rear screw should not go past flush either & interfere with the cock.


Tang Bolt to Triggerplate:

1: Basically, the trigger to tang bolt is the done the same. Inlet the trigger appropriately & retain with the rear screw in triggerplate & small "C" clamp on front of triggerplate (the best ya can), mark & centerpunch the holes, drill the pilot holes. (NOTE: I must mention this hole will most likely be at an angle & a pilot hole here is a Must}

2: Drill the thread size holes all the way through, using a drill point attachment on a drill press..

3: Tap the triggerguard hole gpoing down through the tang to the triggerguard.

4: Drill a 10/32 shaft hole down through the tang & stock & using a drill stop to insure you stop before drilling the triggerplate.

5: Countersink the tang the appropriate depth for the type of screw you are using.

6: Insert screw & mark the excess with a permanent marker, remove trim & refit. The screw in this plate is to be flush with the exterior of the triggerplate.


I hope I didn't miss anything...If I did please someone chime in..... :)

Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Skinning Knives
 
Ghost: To the best of my knowledge, the part you are referring to is called a Frizzen Bridle, not the Bridle of the lock.

The Bridle holds the tumbler & detent fly & is a support assembly.

The Frizzen Bridle is on a lock that has a support arm on the oustide edge of a pan going forward, thus making a bearing & support surface for the frizzen retaining screw on each side of the frizzen.
 
I'd say you have it well understood. Just go slowly and think everything out before drilling the first hole. None of this is hard to do, you're just doing something new. :)
 
The fly you are looking for sets in a cut out in the tumbler its a small little mule eared piece

Ok I looked this up and what did I find.

The correct term for the area I was calling a bridle is the Bolster. That
 
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