Side Plate to Siler Lock Bolt Placement

[rootnuke]

There is not enough room to drill and tap a hole as indicated in the above photos with the green dot pictured in the green rectangle. Reason being a bolt through that area would easily run into the barrel lug.

If you look at that same illustration with the green dot you will see a screw immediatly to the green dot right. There are no threads in the bridle through which it passes. There are threads which match exactly to the side plate bolt in the lock plate.

Why don't I just remove that screw and use the side plate bolt in its place. Alignment between the tang bolt and lug would be perfect and the threads are the same. The only thing I would need to do is cut the side plate bolt so as to not interfer with the hammer.

Here is what I am talking about...

 

[Birddog6]

Root: No, I would not use that screw hole. You don't use that screw for anything but to hold the bridle secure. It is there by itself for a reason & should be left there to do it's purpose..

I think you hve the sideplate too far back.

Take an exacto blade & scribe the edge of the ? "Ear" of the bridle & strip the lock as it should be to do this drilling & tapping & etc., kinda lay the sideplate over the inside of the lock, the holes should hit in the places the photo as you indicated, unless you are using a small siler or the wrong plate for a I.Haines. I guess it is a I.Haines is it not ? & large Siler lock ? that is what the sideplate indicates to me. And if so the front hole should hit just behind the frizzen spring & the rear one at the thick part of the pan side that I call the bolster.

Also as I mentioned in one of my above step to step posts, you will find that I stated that sometimes the bolts will not line up Exactly straight across, such as in 90 degrees. This is nice to have, but it just dosen't always turn out that way, depending on the Lock, Inlet, Lock size, Sideplate size/style, etc. Sometimes that bolt well have to be at a slight angle to hit the meat right to the rear of the pan, just like the dot you had in a previous post. Now if it is up Close to the shoulder of the bridle "Ear" I am going to call it (for lack of a better term) it is not a big deal but it should not pressure against it.

Most of the time I have my barrel back perhaps a lil further than you have & my rear bolt goes THRU the lug as you are calling it. If you are hitting the edge of it you will just have to notch it out there. However it is important that this lug doesn't put any stress on the rear lock bolt.

Also, if you have not done the front bolt yet or inlet the sideplate at all, you can move the sideplate forward slightly possibly & then you will drill Thru the Lug as you call it & hit the bolster where you need to.. It appears you have the sideplate just a little too far back, maybe 3/16" or so.

The next question that comes to my mind in this, is did you set the position of the vent/pan/front of the breechface & etc...... ? Is the vent in front of the breechface or into the side of the breechplug ?

Some guys put then right on the edge of the face of the breechplug, but I like my vents in front of it so the threads of the vent liner doesn't intersect with the breechplug threads & also I think you get less fouling of the vent with it in front of the breechplug face just a tad.

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This is a Large Siler lock on a I.Haines I recently built. If you look you can clearly see the position of the lock bolt holes both front & rear.

Also if you look, you will see the Front bolt hole is just a tad high, but still covered by the frizzen spring on the outside. This was purposely done to keep from hitting the RR hole as I just did have roome to get the bolt in thru without hitting the RR channel & the barrel.

NOTE: This is a LH lock but that has no bearing on the bolt positions.

 

[Birddog6]

Strange how we end up with different terminolgy on the parts of the lock.

For me:

1: the Bridle holds & supports the Tumbler & etc.

2: Pan is the flashpan & the fence is made with it. The thick inside part of this same pan up against the barrel is what I call the Pan Bolster or Bolster.

3: Frizen bridle is the combination of the lock plate &
the flashpan, and they together make up the frizzen bridle, if the style of lock has a frizen bridle at all.

So, that brings to mind some of the locks I have used that the flashan, frizzen bridle & lock plate were all cast together .....

That must be a Lockplatefrizzenpanbridleboslterette ? ha ha ! ::

 

[rootnuke]

Revised Siler Large Lock Parts Diagram per discussion threads.

 

[rootnuke]

If I drill and tap into the Pan Bolster about where the green dot is then that means I will need to drill a hole into my barrel lug as shown with its green dot.

If I understand this correctly the hole will need to have 1/32" "play" in the lug hole for the bolt or 1/32" clearence all around to avoid recoil presure on the bolt.

 

[/quote]
So, that brings to mind some of the locks I have used that the flashan, frizzen bridle & lock plate were all cast together .....

That must be a Lockplatefrizzenpanbridleboslterette ? ha ha ! :: [/quote]


nooooo lmao thats called a juker :applause:

 

sometimes you have to drill through there,in fact some people prefure it .
" i will not give a name to that part, NOPE i will not ,LMAO :shocking:LMAO",

 

[Birddog6]

Root: That is correct IMHO.

Now you should have room in there for the front hole between the RR & the barrel. But I always measure mine. Some do, some don't & just guess. That is why sometimes if you remove a sideplate you will see 2-3 plugged holes & etc. I want to do it correctly One Time & go on.... I don't like backing up & starting over, tho in the past I have had to do so upon occasion. When it comes down to druthers , on this front bolt I would rather skin the barrel than I would hit the RR hole.

Should you hit the barrel drilling this hole, DO NOT try to drill on to the drill point. Stop, pull if off the drill press & see how much of it hit. Most likely you will just skin against it & that is not a big deal, but don't go on from there. Turn it over & drill from the other side 1/2 way. Then take the barrel out & see how much it is gonna hit. That will tell ya how much you need to relieve the barrel to let the bolt slide by..

Course we are talking about just rubbing the barrel... NOT taking a big chunk out of it, but just a skin off, a chain saw file works good for this. Make it a lil wider & a lil taller groove than the bolt coming thus is.

Hopefully it is all just right you won't have any trouble at all.

Go slow, measure it LOTS of times & be sure. If you have to leave it & come back another day, measure it again ALL Over so you are sure again before continueing.

 

[Zonie]

rootnuke: The green "hole" in the "lug" looks about right. The only thing I might add is when you drill this hole, it can have more than 1/32 inch clearance to the screw.
If it breaks out the back of the lug, just use your files and clean it up to make a nice U shaped notch.
This will give the illusion that you (the gunsmith) intended for it to break out. It really doesn't make any difference as far as the gun is concerned but it will look good to anyone who sees the removed barrel.

Now that you can see how these pieces fit together, you can see the wisdom of always removing the rear lock screw from a Pennsylvania rifle before you attempt to remove the barrel.

 

[Birddog6]

ROOT: Actually, 1/32" is just a easy figure to use. As long as it has good clearance it & does not touch it, all will be OK if the breech is securely bedded. You can actually drill the breechplut lug itself allot oversize & you will not see it, however remove the barrel & drill it separately, not the holes thru the wood way oversize..

Also I should note that the breech of the barrel should be bedded well & secure, if it is not bedded or seated in securely, when the gun fired the barrel will move back & good chance of damage to the lock bolt, chance of cracking the wrist at the tang point, stress the tang bolt threads as the trigger, etc.

When I say bedded, I mean that it has full contact with the end of the breech against the wood at that area, not hit & miss in places. If this is not the way you have it, I suggest you bed the tang breech at this area. It is important it doesn't move here, and the larger the caliber the more important it is. If you do bed it here, care should be taken to insure you do the proper preparations so you can get the barrel back out. I do all of my bedding now before I drill any holes or even put the underlugs in, if it is a full length bed. It is much easier as not having to deal with all the holes, notches, & etc.

 

[Birddog6]

So, that brings to mind some of the locks I have used that the flashan, frizzen bridle & lock plate were all cast together .....

That must be a Lockplatefrizzenpanbridleboslterette ? ha ha ! ::

What I was referring to is the new Davis "Jaeger" lock, as it is a all one piece lockplate, pan, bolster, frizzen bridle ...

 

[rootnuke]

my frizzen is frazeled, hammer hammered, tumbler tumbled, bolster basted and spring sprung, but despite that here is one tapped pan bolster ready for a 10/32 side bolt rear screw.

I have to drill for the rear and front side plate bolts. I used the wire trick from birddog6 and made all my measurement marks tonight on the rear and forward bolt placement. Tomorow I will check my measurements, then drill.

Then I will drill the lug.

After that I will drill and tap the front of the lock for the forward bolt.

:snore: thanks for the guidance, I'm wiped :snore: so no website posting tonight.

Then I will try to figure out why I cannot remove the hammer despite having removed everything from the lock. It seems the tumbler refuses to let it go.

 

[Zonie]

The hammer is usually a light press fit on the square area of the tumbler which protrudes thru the lockplate.

I have seen several ways to drive the tumbler out of the hammer but they all share the following in common:

1. Don't try to pry the hammer off by using something between the lockplate and the hammer.

2. Support the lock plate with the tumbler down on the underside so the tumbler is free to move down relative to the lockplate.

3. Don't pound on the screw head.

4. Don't mess up the threads which are tapped into the tumbler.

With all of these Don'ts what's left?
First, I remove the screw. Then I support the lockplate on a vise with the tumbler hanging loosely down between the jaws of the vise. You can also use two blocks of wood to straddle the tumbler but make sure they are thick enough so the tumbler can move down without hitting the workbench.

Using a pin punch which is smaller than the minor diameter (smallest diameter) of the threads I slide it down thru the threaded area until it stops on the bottom of the drilled hole.

Using a medium sized hammer I then drive the tumbler out of the hammer. It usually takes several well directed blows straight down on the punch. The lockplate supports the hammer during this procedure.

When reassembling the lock later, I use a plastic mallet to drive the hammer back onto the tumbler square. This keeps the hammer from getting dinged up.

Notice that when the tumbler is installed thru the lockplate, the flats stop above the plates surface. This allows the flats on the tumbler to position the hammer at the proper distance from the lockplate, so when installing the hammer, you should drive it down so that it stops on these little surfaces.

 

[Birddog6]

ROOT: How did you get that drilled & taped without drilling the stock ? oops... I hope it it is aligned ccorrectly & works..... You are supposed to drill thru the stock & tap the holes THRU THE STOCK , not drill & tap the bolt hole loose..... You do it thru the stock so you get proper alignment. If you tap the holes & happen to be off a tad the wrong way, your lock bolts will always be a problem to get started. (Been there done that....)

Also, I always drill & tap my rear screw all the way thru the pan bolster. Some do, some don't. But I want all the threads I can get there.

 

[rootnuke]

ROOT: How did you get that drilled & taped without drilling the stock ? oops... I hope it it is aligned ccorrectly & works..... You are supposed to drill thru the stock & tap the holes THRU THE STOCK , not drill & tap the bolt hole loose..... You do it thru the stock so you get proper alignment. If you tap the holes & happen to be off a tad the wrong way, your lock bolts will always be a problem to get started. (Been there done that....)

Also, I always drill & tap my rear screw all the way thru the pan bolster. Some do, some don't. But I want all the threads I can get there.

Sorry I mis-typed, I did drill (pilot hole) for the rear with the lock bolt in place, but only 1/16", then marked the pan bolster with the drill. I forgot about tapping through the hole. I think I will be able to work around this mis-step.
To tap the pan bolster I removed the pan bolster from the lock assembly and punched it where the drill scored it. Then drilled and tapped the pan bolster ALL the way through. I did not go into the lock plate at all. The rear bolt will be able to get a very good bite on the pan bolster. I have not yet trimmed the bolt so as to not run into the lock plate once beyond flush with the pan bolster.

I have NOT drilled through the barrel lug as of yet and intend on doing that last. The rear hole is as I said 1/16" for now. I like pilot holes. There is nothing worse than to have a big drill boo-boo. Atleast with a little hole I have a little "meat" to correct the problem.

I have marked the front bolt holes locations with a pencil on the stock to allow rod/barrel clearence but I have not drilled.

I will re-measure tonight.

 

[Darkhorse]

Just to throw a little more confusion into the mix, I drill and tap my lock plate holes just a little different.
First I do all the measurements concerning barrel depth, and RR hole, then do them twice more.
I place the stripped lockplate in the lock mortice and transfer all measurements via a scribe to the lockplate. With everything clamped in place, including the lockplate, I drill my tap drill hole through the lock plate and partially into the stock. Next I tap the hole using a pin in the chuck to align the tap. Next I remove the lockplate without moving the stock then drill the clearance hole all the way through.
Then I repeat the process for the other hole.
After finishing these holes I drill the sideplate true to the holes in the stock. Then with all pieces screwed together mark the sideplate mortice for inletting.
If you have a good tight lockplate fit and do it in the proper order, your screws will go through the stock and screw into the lockplate with a minimum of needed extra clearance.
Another thing about this method. If you are using a stock with tapered side panels such as with a swamped barrel, then by having the sideplate side clamped flat, when you drill your angle will be through the lockplate where a skewed angle breakout will not be seen. The breakout of the drill and the fit of the screwhead will be right on 90 degrees on the sideplate. This is an area where the breakout must be a right angle or else gaps will show on one side or the other of your screw head when its tight against the side plate.
And don't worry about tapping from one side then trying to screw into the other. It works.

 

So, that brings to mind some of the locks I have used that the flashan, frizzen bridle & lock plate were all cast together .....

That must be a Lockplatefrizzenpanbridleboslterette ? ha ha ! ::

What I was referring to is the new Davis "Jaeger" lock, as it is a all one piece lockplate, pan, bolster, frizzen bridle ...

Many locks are this way not just Davis locks,
I have see original that date late17 and early 1800 that where this way as well and as I said some with no fence and no frizzen bridle but just a screw used as a pivot and defiantly no bolster.
Many early English and Scottish made locks have everything on the out side of the lock plate or much like our mule ear lock .

i was trying to joke about it sence many locks on the old juker's were the same . nothing wrong with it its simply another way to design a lock.

 

[54JNoll]

I like to drill the stock and lug at the same time using the "both sides to the middle" approach. Then once everything is lines up I enlarge to proper size and and clamp the lock in place and drill through the bolster. Then I tap or at least start the threads from the side plate side. Works for me and everything is nicely lined up and the bolts start real easy.

 

[rootnuke]

Drilled, tapped and mounted side plate to lock last night.
Everything lines up. All bolts thread and start eeaasssy for the bolts to the lock plate. I need to inlet the stock for the side plate tonight.
Best of all, no break in the barrel channel and no sawdust in the RR.
I don't even want to tell anyone how many times I measured to make sure there was no barrel | RR channel break for the forward bolt.
I also drilled and slightly chamfered the hole for the rear bolt in my barrel lug.
I did many of the steps in the wrong order. Despite my best efforts everything went together perfect.

 

[Birddog6]

Root: Wonderful, glad it all went well..

Don't forget to slightly bevel the inside edge of the sideplate & use the tip of an exacto knife to scribe the outline of it. Do this proceedure with the bolts thru the sideplate & into the lock & all of it snug so it doesn't move & etc. (I'ts a real bummer to inlet one & the bolt holes don't line up with the inlet !)
No go over the scribe line with the exacto kniofe & make it a lil deeper. Then just rub a pencil on some fine sandpaper & take the tip of your finger dab it & then rub into the scribe line. Now saind the area very lightly, blow off the dust & you have a line you can see & it is on the INSIDE of the actual sideplate.
I then take a V carving tool & cut around the scribe just at the inside edge of the line. Then work from the inside wood on the inlet TO that cut, thus there is less chance of breaking out a sliver into the part of the panel that shows. Then work the line carefully til the plate will set in the inlet.
Also keep in mind of how it is supposed to look. All outside ? 3/4 outside, 1/2 in & 1/2 out, 3/4 in, flush ?