Sights and Sight Picture

[harlic]

I'm a new guy and enjoy this forum. There's a lot of good information here.

My .54 Renegade has a tang-mounted TC aperture and stock TC bead in the front. This is a hunting rig and my shooting is less than 100 yards.

The sight picture I've been using the most covers the target with the bead and my shots hit at the center of the bead. The bead covers about 8" at 50 yards so it's not the most precise aiming method, but with a target that helps "frame" the bead I get 1 to 2.5 inch groups off the bench.

I also use a sight picture that balances the bull on top of the front bead. While this is awkward to me, it's more precise from the bench and my groups shrink to .75 to 1.5 inches.

It seems a flat top post might work better with the 6 o'clock-type hold, but I wonder if the post will work OK with the rear aperture.

For those of you using aperture sights, what kind of front sights you have and what sight picture do you use? Thanks.

 

[BrownBear]

Before I wised up back in the days I used peeps and bead on conventional lever guns, I tried smaller and smaller and smaller beads to overcome the problem you point out, especially for head shooting small game.

Turned out I was chasing my tail.

I hunted with a couple of old timers- one used a Savage 99 in 300 Savage and the other used a 30-40 Krag Jorgensen. These guys could both hit half gallon milk jugs all day long at close to 200 yards, and I couldn't even see the jugs with my own guns and their smallest beads! They got a good laugh out of me looking through their sights and seeing the GIANT front beads they used to compensate for their aging eyes. Both made one shot deer kills at near 300 yards in front of me and other witnesses, but I couldn't have seen a deer at 100 behond those giant beads.

What the heck was going on?

Turns out they weren't using the whole bead for sighting. They just used the very top edge of it. Intersect the target, however small, with the top edge of the bead and they could not only see both the target and the sight, they could hit what they aimed at.

Not really a 6 o'clock hold because they weren't sighted to put the bullet above the bead. Just sighted in so it hit where they wanted when the top of the bead cut the aiming point on the target.

All of my rifles are sighted in that way now, whether peep or conventional rear sights. Never looked back, and I can smack snowshoe rabbit heads at 50 yards with a front bead that will cover three whole rabbits at that range.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use either a 6 o'clock hold, or the half bead, center hold Brownbear describes. You can do this with a bead front, whatever size, or with a post front sight. Choose the size of your front sight to accomodate your eyes, as Brownbear recommends.

YOU LOOK THROUGH that aperature, and not at it. So, you FORGET that there is a rear sight, and just put the front sight where you need it to go for how you have " zeroed " your load at a given range. If you try to look AT the aperature, and then the front sight, and then the target, and back and forth, you will wear yourself out quickly.

If you have zeroed your rifle to hit dead on at 50 yards, and know it will strike 4 inches lower at 100 yards, you can hold the post higher on the deer to compensate for the expected drop in POI. More so than with any other sight, the peep or aperature sight teaches the shooter to always concentrate on the FRONT SIGHT.

The only problem I have teaching shooters to shoot peep sights is they want to focus on the target, rather than the front sight, and that opens groups, usually high, and away from your face. ( For RH shooters, that means you are likely to put a ball high and to the left of center, or at the 10:30 o'clock position on a target. For LH shooters, its at the 2:30 position.) I have seen several nice groups ruined because the shooter did not exercise sight discipline when firing that Last Shot.

The way to " cure " that is to not allow the shooter to know where his balls are striking the target, or what his group size is until he completes his string of shots for that target. The targets generally need to be back at 100 yards so the shooter can't see his hits through his sights, or with his naked eye, to accomplish this exercise. I have the shooter tell me where his sight was when the gun went off, and where he expects the bullet/ball went. I record his answers along with the actual hit I see using a spotting scope. Only when he is done do I show him his " hits " in the order in which they were fired. By training to focus on that front sight only, you not only get rid of any flinch, but you train the shooter to know exactly where that shot is likely to go the instance the sear breaks, and the gun fires. When he accurately calls his shots, he is on his way of focusing ONLY on that front sight.

Where he puts the front sight on his target is strickly a matter of preference. I took a page from pistol shooters, and leave an inch of " white " under the bullseye when using the 6 o'clock Hold. I just set the sights so the ball will rise up and hit the center of the bullseye. By leaving some distance between the top of my post, or bead, and the bullseye, I make sure that the post doesn't " disappear " into that black bullseye, and end up stringing shots vertically. Doing so, I don't have to be quite so concerned about the color of my target, and I can put the sight at the bottom of the chest of a deer at 100 yards, and know that the ball will hit about 1/3 up the side of the chest, for a good heart/lung POI on a broadside shot.

 

[NHmsj]

BrownBear,

I have the same set up as CWH and I am also having a wrestling match with the stock front bead. I understand your sight picture, placing the top of the bead at the desired POI and not covering it over. But do I understand correctly that your continue to use a bead-like front blade and not a flat, squared off front blade? I have been considering replacing my original, stock T/C front sight with a squared off blade. From reading what your older shooting buddies were using, I suppose I should find the widest front blade I can find. Would you agree?

msj

 

[NHmsj]

Hey Paul,

I must of been writing my post when you posted yours. Thanks for that info. I will apply what you advise. (Well, I'll give it a good effort, anyway.)

msj

 

[paulvallandigham]

This is just problem solving. We all get older, if we are lucky in life, and that means we all get to the point where those barrels are never long enough! Everyone will look forward to the day when he needs help with his front sights. Large beads, colored sights, florescent sights, etc. are all attempts to find new solutions to old problems. Take a look at globe front sights, commonly used by serious target shooters, with their interchangeable posts. There are all kinds of solutions out there, if you look, and if you understand HOW to use them. Don't overlook how older bowhunters solve the vision problems with their equipment, either. Those arrows don't get longer with age, and certainly their arms don't grow longer, either! :hmm: :rotf: :thumbsup:

 

[harlic]

Several years ago I sold a Renegade I'd owned for some 20 years. It had the square-cut rear and flat front post and I was very comfortable with it sighted to hit just above the front post. It was a shooter, too.

The new(er)Renegade I acquired last fall had the shallow V rear, but it was time to go with the aperture! For some reason, I can't seem to warm up to the POI being just above the round bead the way I did with the flat post. That said, I had a couple three shot ragged hole groups last weekend sighting just above that round bead that I don't like...

I've considered filing the bead down flat, but wondered if it would be too small for a hunting gun. As near as I can tell, after filing it would cover about 3 inches at 50 yards.

I'm looking for one of old flat posts and want to give it a try. I just didn't know if I would be able to center a post as reliably/consistently with the aperture as I'm able to do with the bead.

It sounds like a post should work OK as long as I'm using the aperture correctly and looking thru it and focusing on the front sight.

Indeed, a lot of trial and error and personal preference. This is fun stuff. Thanks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most of the bead front sights you find on commercial guns have either a white, or " gold " bead on them, making those edges a bit " fuzzy " for older eyes. The purpose of the colors is, of course, to allow you quick acquisition of the front sight when looking over the rear open sight in bad lighting conditions. If you use a peep sight, you should not have that problem. I find that opening up the aperature of the peep sight works far better for me as my eyes age. For hunting, I remove the aperature and use the mounting ring as a " ghost ring " sight and shoot just fine. The aperature is saved for used in working up loads at the rifle range, where the samller holes, in very good sunlight will allow the fine tuning of the rear sight to zero the load and really find out how a particular load will group at 50 and 100 yds. Unless I was hunting ground hogs on a sunny day, I would not bother with keeping the aperature in the sight when hunting anything else. Small game can easily be approached well within 50 yards, and larger game, like deer, make a big enough target even at 100 yards and beyond to be able to hit them with the ghost ring sight set-up. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

BrownBear,

I have the same set up as CWH and I am also having a wrestling match with the stock front bead. I understand your sight picture, placing the top of the bead at the desired POI and not covering it over. But do I understand correctly that your continue to use a bead-like front blade and not a flat, squared off front blade? I have been considering replacing my original, stock T/C front sight with a squared off blade. From reading what your older shooting buddies were using, I suppose I should find the widest front blade I can find. Would you agree?

msj

I do the same with both beads and blades. Call it 50 years of conditioning, but I find the beads a little quicker on fast game than the blades. Blades are my pick on the range, but on purely hunting guns I usually go for a bead. If I had been using blades for hunting all those years, I'd probably prefer them.

The big point is to get something going that works for you time and time again. I never could find a bead small enough for using the center of the bead as an aiming point, especially for distant or small game.

 

[Oldnamvet]

I once saw a guy with aperture sights on both ends. This (http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_makeFrontApertureSight.htm) type on the front and a peep on the rear. He claimed it allowed him to always see the target, no matter how small or far away. You just had to center the front sight in the peep, and then center the front aperture on the target.

 

[BrownBear]

Yeah, I used that setup for many years of match shooting. When my eyes first started going south on my I put the Lyman target front sight on my GPR along with the rear peep. It worked dandy for me on game cuzz I was used to it, but the looks started bothering me. I could settle for the rear peep, but not that target front looks-wise. But if my eyes get any worse I'm going right back to it.

 

[longcruise]

I've used that kind of sight on some of my milsurp guns. Made by MoJo. Takes some getting used to but once one adapts it's a good system. Biggest problem to overcome is the tendencey to overthink the sight picture. Once you get over thinking about the rear peep, the whole thing comes together. Had not thought of such a sight for an ml but it could be done. One would need to calculate the ideal size for the front peep. Probably would not be welcome at some shoots! :shocked2:

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Over the years I have noticed some people (present company excepted of course) unfamiliar with aperture sights, make a common mistake, they spend too much time and mental energy concentrating on the aperture. The eye without further ado, automatically seeks out the center of the opening, so forget the aperture rear sight, the front sight only in relation to target should receive all that effort.

OMMV, but I do best with both eyes open when using aperture sights, especially for hunting. Some see the large opening in a ghost ring aperture and think no way, but the eye still goes right to center without even the thought of doing so.