Siler on a Virginia

[SR James]

Given that many Virginia and other southern rifles were a mixture of German and English influences, how appropriate is a large Siler on a Virginia-style rifle? My preference would be for an English lock but many of the Virginia kits offered by the various dealers have the Siler as standard. Is this PC/HC kosher?

 

A fine Virgina rifle:
http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/adam_haymaker.html

There are some here who will say most of the early VA kits, really aren't that. If you want a really good kit, consider this one:
http://www.fowlingguns.com/brookskits.html

or
http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

Both will solve your concern.

Sean

 

[Mike Brooks]

Yep, German locks are fine on Virginia guns.

 

[SR James]

Yes, I'm familiar with these kits. In fact, one of Mike's Klett rifles is on my list for a future build. :wink:
But at the moment, I'm asking the question because I have a Virginia-style rifle that I did not build that has a large Siler. My personal concept of such a rifle would lean toward an English lock but I was wondering just how correct a German lock is? I don't even know if there is an English lock available I could re-fit to a Siler inlet. Or should I just live with the Siler?

 

[Stophel]

A lot (probably most) of the "Virginia rifles" today are fantasy guns.

 

[skunkhead]

Sir James I have pondered the same question on southern mountain rifles. I have never built a Virginia rifle I have never had a call to build one. I have a customer right now that I am building in curly ash a southern mountian. He wants a flinter with a Walter Cain roller frizzen. I tried to lead him down a diffrent path more suitable for the rifle but he wouldn't hear of it. He wants it done in brass (ARGH) instead of iron. I guess you can lead ahorse to water but you can't make him drink. I guess what I am saying is it all depends how a feller looks at it.

 

[nchawkeye]

If I remember correctly the lock on the Haymaker is a replacement...

But, I do agree Germanic and English round faced are fine on Virginia rifles...

You would have more English influence and a gunmaker in Williamsburg from England and you could easily have a gunmaker from the PA area
(mainly Germanic) in the Winchester area...

So...I think it's more important to consider where the "VA" gun was made...Also, the Germanic would have the appropriate fixtures, carving, cheek piece to go with the lock...The English version would have more of the English design...

 

[Swampman]

Brass would be correct too.

"The Gillespie Gunmakers of East Fork NC" shows several brass mounted rifles if I'm not mistaken.

 

[skunkhead]

Mark I got my Long rifle of North Carolina book out and Matthew Gillespie did prefer brass. Phillip gillespie example was done in brass and iron. Thanks Mark. Skunkhead

 

[tg]

I would just consider how Early the gun was to be when considering using the siler lock,I don't think I would push it back into the 1760's

 

[john armstrong]

An Early Ketland is what I would use.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I would just consider how Early the gun was to be when considering using the siler lock,I don't think I would push it back into the 1760's

Siler is a mid 1770's lock at the earliest.

 

[roundball]

I would just consider how Early the gun was to be when considering using the siler lock,I don't think I would push it back into the 1760's

Siler is a mid 1770's lock at the earliest.

I guess since I'm going with a chambers deluxe siler mine will be a late 1770's cause its newer technology
:grin:

 

[Stophel]

Just what kind of gun are we supposed to be building here?

:hmm:

 

[tg]

"Siler is a mid 1770's lock at the earliest'

That was my thoughts on it as well, but it does show up on a lot of early guns, so it does one well to describe early when choosing gun parts.

 

[skunkhead]

TG Can you or mike set me on some books that show me any moutian rifles with siler or any germanic lock. You fellers have got my curiosity up. Thanks for any information Thanks Skunkhead

 

[tg]

I think the "Southern Mt rifles" generaly had an Engish/non-pointy tailed lock I have heard on another forum so eatrly ones had Germanic locks but don't know where to look, as for Mountain rifles of the RMFT I don't know which locks they used, likely something much later than the Siler represents.

 

[Zonie]

After looking thru my copy of Long Rifles of Virginia by James T. Butler, Jr. and James B. Whisker I come to the conclusion that darn near any post 1760 lock can be used on a Virginia Rifle.

There are pointed tailed, bob tailed, teat tailed and round tailed lockplates.
Some with Germanic pans and some with English pans, some with roller frizzen springs but most with plain feather springs.

Many with metal patchboxes but some with no patch box at all.

Unlike many of Dr. Whiskers books this book has a large number of pictures in it with some history of the builders.

 

[Mike Brooks]

TG Can you or mike set me on some books that show me any moutian rifles with siler or any germanic lock. You fellers have got my curiosity up. Thanks for any information Thanks Skunkhead

I have NEVER seen a post 1800 mountain rifle with a Germanic lock on it. ALWAYS english.

 

[roundball]

After looking thru my copy of Long Rifles of Virginia by James T. Butler, Jr. and James B. Whisker I come to the conclusion that darn near any post 1760 lock can be used on a Virginia Rifle.

There are pointed tailed, bob tailed, teat tailed and round tailed lockplates.
Some with Germanic pans and some with English pans, some with roller frizzen springs but most with plain feather springs.

Many with metal patchboxes but some with no patch box at all.
Unlike many of Dr. Whiskers books this book has a large number of pictures in it with some history of the builders.

I'm glad to see an accepted reference that supports my decision not to have a patch box on mine, after all the grief I got for mentioning I wasn't going to have one.

I didn't make my decision based on any historical reference, just the knowledge that every add-on like that cost money and a lot of folks back then were dirt poor...and if they generally used a hunting bag, just how important would a patchbox be anyway.

To me, the most common theme that strikes me about patchboxes...in general, not always...is that they are mainly a place to add a lot of ornament to a rifle which has never been an attraction to me...makes them look too 'tricked-out' for my taste, but that's just me.