Slanted Breech vs Straight Breech

[Cowboy]

I understand that from what I’ve researched the J&S Hawken rifle’s pretty much all were made with a straight breech face and tang face. Were at a 90 degree angle from the barrel laying in the barrel channel of the stock. Later from around 1849 after Jacob’s death, it seemed that the breech and tang faces were remodeled to a slanted breech and tang face.

I guess my question would be is why such a change in the design of how the breech marries to the tang? Did it have to do with economics, production turn out to meet demand, or just maybe a better design overall?

I thought I’d ask you all who build these Plains type rifle’s with the hooked breech. Your opinion of what design is better and why? Straight Breech vs Slanted Breech??

Look forward to your insight.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[54ball]

I find that Hawken Rifles tend to be.....very modern. When you really think about it....I guess flintlock long rifles were state of the art too....in thier time frame.

Simply put. Technology especially in small arms skyrocketed in the 19th Century. The main driving force behind this....The Industrial Revolution. Although the slanted tang may not have been a really new development. Due to the times, it trickles down to smaller shops like Hawken.

I would hazard to guess that this feature is first found on the finest English Sporting Arms of the period. The St. Louis made Hawkens for the most part, were American versions of English Sporting Rifles.

In short it was an improvement during the late percussion period.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Having inlet straight and slant standing breeches, the slanted version are more difficult to make sure the junction with the barrel is tight. They take more work to fit than straight breeches so there is no savings economically. Their value is that they facilitate the installation and removal of the barrel.

dave

 

[hawkeye2]

"In short it was an improvement during the late percussion period."

I wonder in what way it would be an improvement :hmm: . With a vertical breech face/tang face intersection there is only a horizontal force acting on the components. With an angled intersection there is a vertical component from the recoil acting on the intersection. The greater the angle from vertical the greater the vertical component. Actually with a good fit of the two components and the barrel properly bedded and retained the vertical force probably can be ignored but it would seem that it would make it more difficult to mate the components :idunno: .

 

[Wes/Tex]

Haven't inlet a slant breech personally, but those guys I know agree it's much tougher to get it just right. Many end up having to epoxy the barrel and breech together for inletting, then using heat and scrapers to take the pieces apart when it's done.

 

[hawkeye2]

Dave, looks like I was typing while you were posting. Besides making it somewhat easier to remove the barrel are there any other advantages to a slanted breech?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Hawkeye,
My response to you is as an experienced builder not firearm historian, although I pride myself somewhat as the latter. I am basing what I say only on my experience as a builder without any historical documentation to back me up. First, let me label all hook tang and breeches by the British term "standing breeches". I'll define nonslanted standing breeches as "straight" standing breeches meaning the junction between the barrel and receiving tang is perpendicular to the bore of the barrel. On slant standing breeches that angle is less than perpendicular. A goal of any standing breech is that the hook mechanism is snug and tight when the barrel is in place. That assures accuracy. In a straight standing breech, the hook passes under a little lip in the tang to lock it into place snugly. However, to remove or replace the barrel, the hook has to pass under the lip and if the fit is tight, the bottom of the barrel can exert upward pressure on the tang during the process of removal or replacement. That is why all straight standing breeches either have a lug on the bottom through which a cross pin is inserted or a screw threaded into the bottom of the tang from the trigger guard inlet designed to hold the bottom of the breech fast against any levering force of the hook. You will find that on all original guns using straight standing breeches. A slanted breech eliminates that potential leverage because the bottom of the barrel cannot press against the bottom of the inlet when removing or installing the barrel. That is what I believe is the only advantage to a slant breech. By the way, I have no problem inletting any of these breeches after I made sure they fit together tightly. I simply soft solder them together and inlet as a single piece. Then heat and separate them. It is no problem.

dave

 

[Kansas Jake]

Thank you Dave and Wes/Tex for the hints on inletting them. I have a Hawken project that I inherited that needs a bunch of mistakes corrected. I have put it on the back burner as I work on some other projects including some non muzzleloading/firearm related stuff. It looks like the two pieces will get joined when I get back to it.

 

[hawkeye2]

Dave, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Vaino]

Hi Dave....just wondering about the accuracy of both types of standing breeches. If both the rear and front sights are on the bbl, a small amount of alack shouldn't affect accuracy, but accuracy could be affected if the rear sight is mounted on the tang?.....Fred

 

[plmeek]

I understand that from what I’ve researched the J&S Hawken rifle’s pretty much all were made with a straight breech face and tang face. Were at a 90 degree angle from the barrel laying in the barrel channel of the stock. Later from around 1849 after Jacob’s death, it seemed that the breech and tang faces were remodeled to a slanted breech and tang face.

Respectfully, Cowboy

John Baird came to that conclusion in 1967 when he published his series of articles in Muzzle Blasts about Hawken rifles and repeated the material in his 1968 book.

Since then, more Hawken rifles have come to light and have been written about that have changed many of Baird's conclusions and speculations.

Lee Burke presented a paper at the April 2003 meeting of the American Society of Arms Collectors on "The Sublette-Beale Hawken". This is a J&S Hawken rifle with a slant breech. It is believed to have been owned by Andrew Sublette, brother of William and Milton Sublette, and partner with Louis Vasquez in the trading post, Fort Vasquez, located on the South Platte River, near modern day Platteville, Colorado.

Burke's research led him to believe that the Sublette-Beale Hawken was likely made between 1835 and 1843.

 

[rich pierce]

Intereresting that it has a single set trigger like the Atcheson Hawken.

 

[Artificer]

Dave,

That was an excellent explanation.

Gus

 

[Wes/Tex]

Yes, I agree...Dave's explanation said it more succinctly than my ramblings! :wink:

 

[dave_person]

Hi and Thanks,
Fred, the accuracy issue does not involve the sights, rather a solid fit in the breech. For accuracy, you don't want slop in the way the breech is anchored whether a standing breech or not.

dave