Slow ignition Touch-hole size?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I have a TVM Early Virginia with a 1 1/8-inch breech width, 5/16-inch White Lightning liner, and a Chambers Colonial Fowler lock.

When this was new, I would get the occasional flash in the pan. So I drilled the touch hole out to 1/16-inch. That fixed the failure to fire problems.

But I've been plagued with slow ignition. I've been practicing with just an empty barrel and focusing on following through by just priming the pan and "dry-firing". It seems like the pan flashes pretty much instantaneously. So I'm beginning to think the problem is with the touch-hole.

I went with the White Lightning because it was reputed to be the best. What gives?

 

[bonron]

My 40cal flinter w/white lightning liner fires almost instantaneously with the original hole size. I believe it is about 57thnds. I doubt the problem is the liner. Maybe too much powder in the pan? I know, sometimes, this can cause a wick effect. Try less priming powder. Ron

 

[Rifleman1776]

Flinters do not always behave like we think they should. A variety of factors might be at play. e.g. your priming technique, type of powder, how you hold yer mouth, etc.
Are you using real black powder? How do you prime?
Even not know what is causing the current problem, you might want to consider a touch hole liner with an inside cone.

 

[excess650]

My quickest FL has the same liner with smaller vent, and is almost instantaneous.

(1) Are you using real BP in the barrel, and what granulation?

(2)Can you post a picture from the RH side, level with the pan?

(3)How far ahead of the breechplug is the center of the liner?....or does this rifle have a patent breech?

(4)Are you "picking the charge" prior to priming, or loading with a pick in the vent?

edit: the 5/16" WL liner has an even larger internal cone than the 1/4" WL

 

[MacRob46]

I don't think the size of your touchhole is at issue. As the other posters mentioned, there are several variables which can affect ignition speed: the powder granulation, amount of the priming charge, position of the touchhole in relation to the pan, burrs in the touchhole, etc. A photo of the lock area of your rifle may help get started on the solution to the problem.

 

[Billnpatti]

There are many factors which can effect ignition time. In talking about this problem, I am making the assumption that you are using real black powder. Substitutes will not work in a flintlock. If you are trying to use a substitute, that right there is your problem. Assuming that you are using real black powder, powder granulation of your pan charge is of minor significance as long as you are using nothing larger than 3f. 4f is only a tiny insignificant fraction of a second faster than 3f. Position of the powder charge in the pan does not make a significant difference so long as the touch hole is not covered. You have apparently ruled out poor function of your pan, frizzen, etc. That would indicate that the problem lies in the flash getting to the main charge. So, this brings us to the two more significant possibilities. First, you have to make sure that the flash channel is clean and open. If you have a rifle with a patent breach, it takes special care to keep it clean. If it gets gunked up, that can make a significant difference in ignition time. If you do not have a patent breach, or it being fouled is not the problem, the next thing to do is to make sure to keep powder from your main charge from filling and plugging the touch hole when you load. To do this, just stick a small feather, piece of wire or other such thing in the touch hole when you load. This will keep a tiny void in your powder charge right at the touch hole. This tiny void will improve ignition.

Larry Pletcher (Pletch) has posted some high speed photography of some of his studies of how different granulations of powder in the pan and the position of the powder in the pan effect ignition time. Do a quick search on the forum for his work. It is very enlightening.

 

[LRB]

My last liner hole was 1/16", which I believe to be the maximum size for tight accuracy. JMO. but it was hesitant. As in previous experience, I gave the outside a slight cone with a small Dremel ball cutter. Ignition was immediately instantaneous just as I have experienced with others in the past. It is my belief that the outer cone acts as a funnel for the heat/flash. I would suggest trying that if all else fails. AS LONG AS TVM left enough channel when they installed it. You will need about 1/32" after doing the outer cone for safety concerns.

 

[Dane]

White lightning liners ARE the best. However, the installation can be a big variable. The secret to fast ignition, is getting the priming charge close to the main charge.
I've seen WL liners installed so deep, that the wall is way too thick, and the purpose of the liner is defeated.
If you have to enlarge that hole over 1/16", it's probably installed too deep. In that case, Wicks idea may be the best.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I have the original Lyman liner in one rifle, and an Apmco in another. Both often experienced more ignition delay than I found acceptable. I drilled outboth to .064" with a #52 drillbit. Speed of ignition improved, but still wasn't what I expected. I coned the interior of both liners, as well as outside, and now ignition is instantaneous.

From what I've experienced, it appears that touch hole size is of secondary importance, and coning/chamfering both ends of the liner produces better performance results.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I agree with Wick. In an early timing experiment, I was working with a straight 1/16" vent. I used a counter sink on the exterior - just a bit - spun by hand. Both speed and consistency were improved.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is spark quantity. fifteen sparks in the priming will build the ignition faster than three sparks. We've seen this in slow motion. A few sparks may ignite the barrel, but a MASSIVE amount of sparks will ignite it faster. (I don't try to milk a flint for the most shots anymore.)

Regards,
Pletch

 

[bpd303]

Charlie Caywood (Danny's dad) taught me about coning the outside of the touch hole. Greatly improves ignition on all my flintlocks.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Are you picking the vent hole after loading the main charge. If not give that a try thats what I have to do with mine. Some times ya have to loosen up a bit of powder to get a faster ignition.

 

[stinkyfeet]

White lightning liners ARE the best. However, the installation can be a big variable. The secret to fast ignition, is getting the priming charge close to the main charge.
I've seen WL liners installed so deep, that the wall is way too thick, and the purpose of the liner is defeated.
If you have to enlarge that hole over 1/16", it's probably installed too deep. In that case, Wicks idea may be the best.

This isn't always the case I get better ignition with the prime away from the main charge and vent on my 36 cal, and banked towards the vent on my 45 both frontier rifles

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

To answer some questions:

Yes the only thing this rifle has seen is Swiss FFg (it's a .54). I prime with the same, but like I noted it doesn't seem like there is a delay for the prime to go off.

Yes I do pick the vent prior to priming. I've got a little piece of 1/16-inch brass rod mounted in a piece of wood.

The touch hole is about in the sunset position. I can't tell any difference tilting the powder away from the hole or next to it.

I will post pictures. How can you tell the depth of the channel? I'm afraid if I cone the outside of the liner I will thin the web too much. When I load I can see powder granules right there in the touch hole.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So how do you post pictures on this website?

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well forget the photos. I'm not going to set up a photobucket account.

Anyway. The hole is in the sunset position. And when charged (before I pick the vent) I can see powder granules right there in the hole.

I picked up a #50 drill bit, but I realize that once I drill it there's no "undrilling" it.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

If your vent is in the sunset position, is clean, and you can see barrel powder through the vent, I would next try some good 4f priming powder. I really like Swiss Null B. In a test of 20 trials (Muzzle Blasts June 05) the slowest try with Null B was faster than the fastest try with Goex ffg.

Earlier I mentioned the amount of sparks is important. Are you getting sparks like this?



With sparks like this landing in Swiss Null B and a clean vent, you should have no ignition trouble. (Make sure at least some of the prime is against the barrel.)

Regards,
Pletch

PS Happy Birthday, Wick.

 

[LRB]

Remove the lock and use a good flash light, and you should be able to see the depth of the channel if it is clean. You would have to guesstimate the depth of the channel. I don't know of any way to get an accurate measurement with the liner and BP installed. Maybe Pletch does. Thanks Pletch.

 

[excess650]

To answer some questions:

Yes the only thing this rifle has seen is Swiss FFg (it's a .54). I prime with the same, but like I noted it doesn't seem like there is a delay for the prime to go off.Try ffffg in the pan. You WILL notice the difference over ffg.

Yes I do pick the vent prior to priming. I've got a little piece of 1/16-inch brass rod mounted in a piece of wood.That works, but loading with that pick in the vent will also work. Try it.

The touch hole is about in the sunset position. I can't tell any difference tilting the powder away from the hole or next to it. That lock has a pretty wide, shallow pan. I have the "sister lock" with borders, and it likes at least 2/3 full pan of powder.

I will post pictures. How can you tell the depth of the channel? I'm afraid if I cone the outside of the liner I will thin the web too much. When I load I can see powder granules right there in the touch hole.

If you can see powder at the vent, it should be good. You should have at least 1/32" web at the vent. To check for location in relationship to the breech plug, slide the loading rod down the barrel and mark it at the muzzle when in contact with the breech plug. With the lock (or at least frizzen) removed, lay the rod along the outside of the barrel with the mark positioned at the muzzle. If the vent is centered at the face of the breech plug(end of loading rod), your ignition problem is understandable. I'm more inclined to think switching to ffffg as prime will solve your problem.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Charlie Caywood (Danny's dad) taught me about coning the outside of the touch hole. Greatly improves ignition on all my flintlocks.

Charlies, as wonderful a person as he is and as great a gun builder as he was, has some very strange opinions about things ml. I'm surprised he even discussed touch hole liners with you. Usually, he considers them more evil than the devil hisself. He, and son, Danny will not use liners at all.
BTW, it is my opinion an inside cone is most effective.