Slow ignition Touch-hole size?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks guys.

I find the recommendations for FFFFg interesting because before I started this thread I searched the forum for threads regarding the various priming powders. In those threads I could not find ANYONE who professed to noticed a difference between FFFFg and priming with the same granulation as the main charge.

I should clarify that the ignition is slow but not hang-fire. It's just slow enough to destroy accuracy given the amount of sight-wobble. You can just perceive the motion, vibration, and flash of the lock before the bang of the gun. When dry-firing the motion, vibration and flash seem to happen at one instant, which is why I suspect the touch hole.

I will measure the depth to breech plug tonight.

 

[mr.flintlock]

I tend to agree with some of the others, in that your problem may very well be in your use of 2-F as a priming powder. I agree that Swiss nullB would improve your ignition time.I'll make one other suggestion. In addition to switching prime powder you should also try loading the barrel with 3-f powder. I believe that if you will do these two things you will see a significant improvement.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Oh. And BTW, Do I need to go out and buy a pound of Swiss Null B?

Or can I just take a small amount of FFg and crush it? Just for the sake of experiment?

I'd rather not buy the FFFFg only to find out it was not the problem.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Below are three ways to show the difference between ignition of various priming powders. These were done by timing each powder 20 times and finding the average. (MuzzleBlasts April 2005) Keep in mind that we're dealing in thousandths. Human ears and eyes are terrible tools to determine speeds. (Ears are better than eyes. This comes from almost 30 years of trying to second guess the computer.)








Grinding ffg will help. I guess you need to decide how fast you want your ignition to be, and is it worth the trouble.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[excess650]

First off, if you read that there was no perceived difference in ignition between ffffg and ffg, it must have been something written by other than a rifle shooter.

You have a pretty large lock with a large, heavy hammer with longish throw carrying a large heavy flint. It strikes the frizzen well off the centerline of the bore, so contributes to "sight wobble". If you have a set trigger, you're adding to ignition time. Add more time to ignite ffg in the pan, and a little more to iginte the ffg in the barrel....it all adds up.

ffffg will flash more quickly than ffg, but the duration of burn will be longer with ffg. I want that peak temperature from the flash as quickly as possible! I'm also convinced that fffg in the barrel ignites more quickly than does ffg.

Are the surfaces of your pan and corresponding surface on the bottom of the frizzen polished to better reflect the heat?

Go ahead and crush some ffg and try it. Use 2/3 to full pan of prime.

I guess I should have asked what kind of flint are you using and is it sharp? making lots of sparks? Hitting the frizzen above 2/3s up? I will not use cut agates, and chert didn't work nearly as well in my locks as does black English, or French amber.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks Pletch.

But like you noted. The difference between the fastest and slowest prime powders is not likely perceptable.

So I don't understand how shaving off an imperceptable amount of time will fix my problem.

I'll try grinding my own 4F. If it solves the problem, then I'll know it is worth buying a pound of Null B.

 

[excess650]

I proved to myself that ffffg is quicker in the pan than fffg, and noticeably quicker than ffg.

I have a rifle that WAS slow...vent was at the correct height but 3/4 forward in the pan. It was drilled right at the face of the breech plug (built 20 years ago from an early Isaac Haines kit). The "removeable" liner wouldn't budge, so I drilled it out larger, later coned it on the outside, and finally widened the pan forward. During this process I had the vent ~.07", so it would dribble fffg, but not ffg. I decided it was time to replace the liner... I found that the breech plug had a slight bevel on the vent side, so didn't further modify it. The replacement liner was slotted like the early TC liner, but not the same. I further coned it on the inside and just lightly coned the outside to remove the slot around the vent. Subsequent shooting proved it much quicker, and loading with a pick in place seems more consistent than does picking the charge. The vent is less than 1/16".

Something else that I noticed, and maybe others have noticed, is that as my powder charge went up from 50gr-70gr (45cal x 38") perceived ignition seemed quicker. I also notice this on my .50x42". I suspect that as muzzle velocity goes up, the perceived delay HEARD is lessened. I did not pick up on this with my next shorter rifle .58x32" or the even shorter .62x28-1/2". Pletch and the other experienced shooters may have tuned in on this "phenomenon".

I've never encountered "null B" or 7f for sale. The shops that I have purchased priming powder have ffffg, and some will sell 1/4 or 1/2#.

 

[FishDFly]

So you buy a custom made rifle and decide you know more than the maker and drill out the vent liner, did you call the maker to learn what you do not know?

Most likely you learned here by reading and have no factual background/experience of your own to make decisions from.

Durn, near everyone who knows anything about flintlocks, know that 3F is the minimum in the pan, 4F is better in the pan and Null B is what match winners use. 2F in the pan is like asking, how do I clean my rifle?

Listen to Pletch, you can learn if you wish from a person who knows of what he speaks.

Spend $1,500 on a rifle and too cheap to buy a pound of powder after educated folks tell you what to do.

Geez.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Wow. Just wow...

 

[azmntman]

Ya WOW! Hope you get it worked out soon and for next to nothing in $$.

 

[Dphar]

Thanks Pletch.

But like you noted. The difference between the fastest and slowest prime powders is not likely perceptable.

So I don't understand how shaving off an imperceptable amount of time will fix my problem.

I'll try grinding my own 4F. If it solves the problem, then I'll know it is worth buying a pound of Null B.

The faster the ignition cycle the smaller the groups, especially offhand. Shooting 50-100 yards how far will the gun move between sear break and ball exit?
I used to shoot indoor 50 ft 22 with 19th c action SS rifles. The difference in shot dispersion between a "fast" exposed hammer rifle like a Win SS and a striker action like a miniature Martini was striking. With the hammer gun the bullet would not always be where the cross hairs were when the sear broke. With the Martini it was right there.
So not being able to notice the difference (and I could tell the difference in a Stevens or Win. vs the striker action) it WILL show on the target. I won most of the matches with the Martini shooting against some pretty serious shooters using "slower" lock time actions.
So a few thousandths in lock time (an eternity in the modern rifle world) will make a difference.

I can also tell the difference in a speed locked bolt gun like a military Mauser vs original.
I can also tell that FF is not as fast as Null B.
Now if you get USED to the FF it will begin to appear fast. Until one goes back to the Null B.

Dan

 

[FishDFly]

"Now if you get USED to the FF it will begin to appear fast. Until one goes back to the Null B."

I shot a new Lewis flintlock pistol yesterday.

Loaded it with 3F and primed with 3F, very very slow ignition and not reliable ignition each time, duh, I blamed the pistol to start with.

I forgot the Null B at home, the pistol would shoot and function, but not a match winner in line matches.

I was in a hurry to shoot a new pistol for the WNS. Stupid is as stupid does, thanks Mr. Gump.



In a crisis, you will not rise to the occasion, but merely default to your level of training.

So durn correct.

 

[nchawkeye]

What they are saying, is if you have a White Lightning liner,the touch hole is in the proper position and you have good sparks then there is nothing wrong with the rifle...

I can tell a difference when priming with FFF, that's why I use FFFF, unless it's really damp...

I'd go to both FFF for a main charge and FFFF for priming...

 

[Rifleman1776]

Do not crush. :nono:
Doing so will only make crushed powder and dust, not smaller granules.
If you plan to stick with flint, do buy a pound of 4Fg. It is the standard primer powder and will give you consistent results. You missed many comments by folks who prefer 4Fg over other sizes. I have never used null B so can't opin on that.
Until you try 4Fg for primer you will never know if that might solve your problems.

 

[Leatherbark]

Make sure ashes and dried mud from those ashes from firing and cleaning without using a breech scraper is not blocking your vent. Cleaning without flushing with water just using a wet jag will allow gunk to slowly build up. Might not be your problem, but I'd scrape the breech and flush out the liner with water when cleaning.

Good Luck

Bob

 

[bpd303]

Should have qualified this... we were talking about direct drilled flash holes, not liners. :thumbsup:

Charlie Caywood (Danny's dad) taught me about coning the outside of the touch hole. Greatly improves ignition on all my flintlocks.

Charlies, as wonderful a person as he is and as great a gun builder as he was, has some very strange opinions about things ml. I'm surprised he even discussed touch hole liners with you. Usually, he considers them more evil than the devil hisself. He, and son, Danny will not use liners at all.
BTW, it is my opinion an inside cone is most effective.

 

[sleddman]

Load your rifle with ffg and a vent pick inserted. Tap your load so it gets deep into your breach. Prime with ffffg . Make sure you use a flint that is sharp. (Not an agate flint.) If you don't have a real flint get one. It will work. Let us know when you try this.

 

[M. De Land]

I used to believe that but did some testing in a damp box for up to five hours of continuous exposure to 100 percent humidity and nearly 90 degree F Heat. The 4 F fired fine and did not absorb any more moisture than did the 3f which also fired.
Fouling is what collects humidity readily not the powder. Keep the pan clean, flint and frizzen dry and they will almost always fire. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

Seems to me that coning the interior of a flash hole is a mistake although doing so to the exterior makes a great deal of sense.
I want flash efficiency inward not outward and if the liner is installed in the right place an internal cone has becomes a solution in search of a problem. One mans opinion. Mike D.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I understand.

I tried crushing some powder and priming with that (apparently a no-no). Like usual, I can't tell a difference when simply comparing a primed pan but no main charge. So I went outside and tried a small charge in the barrel with a moist patch (can't shoot real loads without travelling).

It seemed to make a difference.

So I suppose real 4f or Null B would be even better.