small siler lock kit
- Thread starter crmyers
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Which frizzen came w/ the lock? My squirrel rifle that I built in 1981 has a small Siler made from a kit and it didn't function well upon completion because of inherent faulty geometry....the frizzen would end up sitting on the flint. Read in an article that the relationship between the frizzen toe and frizzen spring shape wasn't designed correctly. Remedied this by grinding a slight cam on the frizzen spring. Since then, some redesigned replacement frizzens have corrected this problem. Otherwise, didn't have any difficulties w/ assembly and it's a good lock.....Fred
blacksmithshoppe
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From what I have heard Jim Chambers has corrected most of the problems with the Siler Locks, as few they were. I have "adjusted" the angle of the cock to point into the pan better, you may try that "IF" you have any problems.
Jeff
Jeff
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One thing you need to make sure of when assembling any lock is to see that the sear nose fits properly in the half cock notch. It cannot be tight. Carefully observe the way the sear nose levers itself down as you pull back on the cock. Make sure that the sear nose doesn't lever off a piece off the half cock hook!! Take a small file (I had to grind down my own little file to make it thin enough to fit into places like this...you can buy an actual screw slot file, but they are ridiculously expensive), and widen out the half cock as necessary. File mostly on the inside of the "hook" part. Filing down on the inner surface (which runs into the full cock let-off ledge) can cause trouble.
In my opinion, if you can find an oven which will maintain a heat of 500 degrees, you can use it.
The results will not be quite as soft as 600 degrees would give but it will lower the hardness enough to keep the part from being brittle.
With a Carbon steel, 600 degrees would be a spring temper. 500 degrees would be more suitable for things like an axe or wood chisel.
With an alloy steel like your parts are made from I believe it will still be "tough" and will wear a little better than the 600 degree F temper will give.
zonie
The results will not be quite as soft as 600 degrees would give but it will lower the hardness enough to keep the part from being brittle.
With a Carbon steel, 600 degrees would be a spring temper. 500 degrees would be more suitable for things like an axe or wood chisel.
With an alloy steel like your parts are made from I believe it will still be "tough" and will wear a little better than the 600 degree F temper will give.
zonie
One hour should be more than enough to allow the entire part to stabilize at that temperature as the parts aren't that large.
Although some may say you should quench the part from the tempering temperature, I really do not buy into that method.
I would recommend taking the parts out and allowing them to air cool to room temperature.
The finished parts will be just a little softer than "file hard" but not much so filing on them will dull the file rapidly. This assumes you quenched the parts in oil from a bright red heat.
Before tempering the parts, you might want to try to file them somewhere where it won't damage the working surfaces of the parts.
Prior to any tempering, these parts should be as hard as a file. If they are not, you may not have heated them up to the hardening temperature, or you may have been too slow in getting them into the oil bath quench. Test them with a file to make sure they are fully hardened before you do any tempering.
zonie
Although some may say you should quench the part from the tempering temperature, I really do not buy into that method.
I would recommend taking the parts out and allowing them to air cool to room temperature.
The finished parts will be just a little softer than "file hard" but not much so filing on them will dull the file rapidly. This assumes you quenched the parts in oil from a bright red heat.
Before tempering the parts, you might want to try to file them somewhere where it won't damage the working surfaces of the parts.
Prior to any tempering, these parts should be as hard as a file. If they are not, you may not have heated them up to the hardening temperature, or you may have been too slow in getting them into the oil bath quench. Test them with a file to make sure they are fully hardened before you do any tempering.
zonie
It is addictive!
While your working on a project, you may not think about it, but within one day of finishing it you will start to think, "I sure wish I had something to do. That gun wasn't as hard as I though it would be and it turned out a lot better than I thought it would. Ya know, it would be kinda neat to have a nice (fill in the blank)! I've spent a lot more for a lot less before. Where is that dam catalog!!!"
zonie
While your working on a project, you may not think about it, but within one day of finishing it you will start to think, "I sure wish I had something to do. That gun wasn't as hard as I though it would be and it turned out a lot better than I thought it would. Ya know, it would be kinda neat to have a nice (fill in the blank)! I've spent a lot more for a lot less before. Where is that dam catalog!!!"
zonie
That's common. If you are using a propane torch you may have trouble getting the frizzen hot enough before the quench. If you make a little box out of fire brick (not regular brick, PLEASE) it will get hotter. Hold it with a thin wire. I'd grind out those dig marks first.
Test it when hardened with a new file- should be hard as glass before tempering. I never temper till I test to see it's as hard as it needs to be.
Then do not rely on your oven setting to be accurate when you temper. Do use an oven thermometer on the same level as the frizzen.
Test it when hardened with a new file- should be hard as glass before tempering. I never temper till I test to see it's as hard as it needs to be.
Then do not rely on your oven setting to be accurate when you temper. Do use an oven thermometer on the same level as the frizzen.
For heating lock parts, I use a 4" length of 2" dia. steel pipe w/ an end cap that has {6} 1/8" drilled holes. A Mapp gas torch is used to heat....the 1/8" holes are important to draw the flame into the pipe. Have heated many lock parts w/ this....Fred
I've used two propane torches pointing so the flames converge.
I place a cat food can filled with oil directly below this point.
By holding the frizzen at the point of convergence with a pair of pliers, I have been able to get the parts blade to the bright red/orange color. I then just release the grip on the pliers to let the part fall into the oil.
This has worked very well for me.
One of the reasons this works is it allows quenching the part while it is still at it's red/orange heat.
This is important because if you heat the part up to the red/orange temperature and then take more than an instants time to get the part into the quench, it will cool down below the proper temperature. If it is below the proper temperture when it is quenched it will not harden.
Remember, this is a very thin part so it looses its heat very rapidly when it is removed from the flames.
Also remember, it's the blade that needs to be hardened. If the rest of the frizzen isn't at the right temperature, it's not a bad thing.
IMO, you really don't want the area where the screw hole is, or even the pan cover area to be fully hardened as toughness in this area is more important than hardness.
zonie
I place a cat food can filled with oil directly below this point.
By holding the frizzen at the point of convergence with a pair of pliers, I have been able to get the parts blade to the bright red/orange color. I then just release the grip on the pliers to let the part fall into the oil.
This has worked very well for me.
One of the reasons this works is it allows quenching the part while it is still at it's red/orange heat.
This is important because if you heat the part up to the red/orange temperature and then take more than an instants time to get the part into the quench, it will cool down below the proper temperature. If it is below the proper temperture when it is quenched it will not harden.
Remember, this is a very thin part so it looses its heat very rapidly when it is removed from the flames.
Also remember, it's the blade that needs to be hardened. If the rest of the frizzen isn't at the right temperature, it's not a bad thing.
IMO, you really don't want the area where the screw hole is, or even the pan cover area to be fully hardened as toughness in this area is more important than hardness.
zonie
When you do get it up to temp.,you need to quench it in at least a quart of oil any less won't cool it quickly enough to harden. I got that from Bud Siler himself back in the day, it works. I like the idea of using fire bricks with a propane fuel source. I remember the trouble I went through with not enough heat. Another point is that you want to be working in kind of subdued light as it is easy to misjudge color in bright light and easy to overheat. Everytime you heat the part you lose carbon and when you overheat as well. Carbon is what mild steel lacks. The carbon content in the steel determines the hardness. Has to be just right or will be to brittle and break or to hard to spark with a flint. Hope this helps. Sounds harder than it is. Keep trying, if you burn it up get another frizzen casting and try again that's how you learn how to do it.Remember everytime you heat it you lose carbon. I don't know if Jim still uses the same alloy as Siler did or not so it might be different now.
Yes, the torch is applied at the open end. The pipe really concentrates the heat and gives a uniform temp {color}. In lieu of an end cap, sheet metal wired on will suffice, but either a gap or holes are necessary for "breathing". I use wire on the part for removing and quenching.....Fred
breechplug, I sure hope you get this thing figured out!!
The last rifle I bought has a small Siler,and I've shot about 50 shots with the original flint I put in it and it's still sharp and rolling fire every time it drops. :winking:
They are great locks. :grin:
The last rifle I bought has a small Siler,and I've shot about 50 shots with the original flint I put in it and it's still sharp and rolling fire every time it drops. :winking:
They are great locks. :grin:
paulvallandigham
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You can tell the steel is too hot if it starts giving off " sparks ". THat is the carbon in the steel burning off, a definite " No-No". When you use some kind of oven, or enclosed container when heating parts, this is something you want to keep an eye out for. Remove the part from the heat AND from the container- as it takes the container time to lose the heat, too- until it cools down to the right temperature. It never hurts to have a magnet around. Just check the metal when its cold to see if it really contains iron, and attracts the magnet when the metal is cold!
Don't skimp on the depth or amount of oil you use to quench. A large 1/2 gal. container with a quart of oil in it can be help plenty close to your heat source to get the frizzen from the heat to the oil while the frizzen stays at temperature. As thin as a frizzen is, it still is steel, and it hold heat fairly well. It is not quenched in seconds. It needs to be swirled around in the oil for at least a minute, and then left to continue to cool for a few minutes more before being removed. Turn off the heat source. Air out the room, Go get a breath of fresh air, get something cool to drink. Then, go back and remove the frizzen from the quench.
The frizzen will have a scale on its surface that is gray-black in color. You can remove it with emery cloth backed with a file. I like to use a half round file to back the paper to polish the face of the frizzen. The backside and the base of the frizzen can wait. Inspect it for cracks. hold it through the pivot hole on wire, and strike it lightly with a piece of metal to hear how it sounds. It should give you a high pitched " ting ". Using a very small jeweler's file, test the back of the frizzen to see if you can remove any metel. If its truly hard, a file will not cut it easily.
Then go to the tempering process using your oven. When the frizzen is tempered, then you can remove the scale from the rest of the frizzen. DO NOT SKP THE TEMPERING PROCESS.( The shooting of the gun may never break the frizzen, but if you bump that frizzen hard enough against something, or the gun falls over and hits a rock or concrete, it may break the frizzen. )
If you have a power grinder, get one of the wire wheels and use that at high rpm to remove the scale. That seems to do it the fastest. After its tempered, you should be able to file it, or polish it with emory cloth. to final finish.
Don't skimp on the depth or amount of oil you use to quench. A large 1/2 gal. container with a quart of oil in it can be help plenty close to your heat source to get the frizzen from the heat to the oil while the frizzen stays at temperature. As thin as a frizzen is, it still is steel, and it hold heat fairly well. It is not quenched in seconds. It needs to be swirled around in the oil for at least a minute, and then left to continue to cool for a few minutes more before being removed. Turn off the heat source. Air out the room, Go get a breath of fresh air, get something cool to drink. Then, go back and remove the frizzen from the quench.
The frizzen will have a scale on its surface that is gray-black in color. You can remove it with emery cloth backed with a file. I like to use a half round file to back the paper to polish the face of the frizzen. The backside and the base of the frizzen can wait. Inspect it for cracks. hold it through the pivot hole on wire, and strike it lightly with a piece of metal to hear how it sounds. It should give you a high pitched " ting ". Using a very small jeweler's file, test the back of the frizzen to see if you can remove any metel. If its truly hard, a file will not cut it easily.
Then go to the tempering process using your oven. When the frizzen is tempered, then you can remove the scale from the rest of the frizzen. DO NOT SKP THE TEMPERING PROCESS.( The shooting of the gun may never break the frizzen, but if you bump that frizzen hard enough against something, or the gun falls over and hits a rock or concrete, it may break the frizzen. )
If you have a power grinder, get one of the wire wheels and use that at high rpm to remove the scale. That seems to do it the fastest. After its tempered, you should be able to file it, or polish it with emory cloth. to final finish.
