Smallest caliber

[lyuv]

What would be the smallest caliber of a smoothbore pistol, that at several dozens yard would pack enough punch to be considered a weapon?

Dont limit yourself to "standard" calibers only.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Colt .45 acp ! Best ever! Nothing less!

 

[Many Klatch]

I like my .64. However at several dozens of yards I couldn't hit a barn with it if I was inside the barn and the doors were closed. But loaded with buck and ball up close it is pretty effective.

Many Klatch

 

[DanChamberlain]

I take it "several" is more than two?

Dan

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Assuming 'several' to be, say, 5 yards (15 ft.) then somewhere around .40 caliber would be more than adequate to put the fear into a man. A large animal (ie. Bear) then something big say around .58 cal minimum would be lots better. I don't have any experience there, just guessing.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't think you would find many volunteers willing to be shot even with a .22 caliber round ball at a " few yards", so I think your question is more academic than you do.

No handgun shoots a ball or bullet large enough to Knock someone down. That is a simple law of physics. As to giving someone a " punch ", I don't know that the term has any accepted standard, or definition, as a reference.

We do know that a slow moving, large projectile will transfer a lot of energy to a human body, and that the body has nerves spaces about .40 apart across most of the body. We know that you want to hit at least 3 of those nerve endings to cause shock to interrupt brain activity, so that a 45 caliber ball has a better chance of doing this than a .35 caliber ball will. However, nothing that comes out of the barrel of a gun can affect the condition of the human target it hits uniformly, unless you get into the Howizer shells. If the target is full of adrenalin, or intoxicated, or on drugs, he may not feel the shock of being hit at all, and just keep coming. There are thousands of documented cases of soldiers who have suffered grievous wounds who have continued to fight and kill the enemy, or rescue their fallen buddies. The stories behind our Medal of Honor recipients are full of these cases.

So, whether a certain caliber can deliver a " punch " is not very relevant to real life combat fighting, and therefore just an academic question. Why go there? I know of one case where a police officer, against advice from other members of his hunting party, shot a wild boar 17 times with a .45 acp, using 185 grain jacketed hollow point bullets. All he did was wound the animal, and make if very angry! He borrowed a 12 ga. slug gun and killed the animal finally with one shot to the chest at it charged him. The 185 gr. hollow points ware designed to expend their energy on the relatively thin target that is a human being, and did not have the ability to penetrate the hide and bones of a wild board to reach the vital organs. Obviously, the 12 ga. slug was designed to accomplish that task. We don't have 12 ga. handguns( well, mostly we don't. I do know of some, but that's another story.)

BTW, and for everyone else's information, some smaller caliber guns fire bullets at such a high velocity that the shock wave actually disrupts the nerves in a wider area than the bullet diameter, and causes the human to stop being agressive. But, we don't have those kind of guns loaded with black powder these days. The .44 Walker Colt would be the only gun that might come close shooting round balls. The .36 Navy would be iffy, at short range. Neither gun would be what you would want to take to a gunfight, but would be better than no gun at all.

 

[silverfox]

I'll go another way at this. If it makes me bleed I would call it a weapon and respond likewise.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[George Holton]

:hatsoff: only way to go.

 

[Many Klatch]

Yep, three or four .32 ball and one .64 ball over 45 grains of 3F make a pretty potent charge. It kicks a might, but if you were using it as a last resort protection against something nasty up close that solid kick could be pretty comforting.

Many Klatch

 

[Leonredbeard]

Paul,
I think my ten inch barreled flinter in .54 would pack a pretty good punch on the human body with 28 grains of 2fg and a 230 grain roundball. I have fired forty grains behind the roundball with less accuracy but then at 15 feet.....
volatpluvia

 

[Slamfire]

0.60"paint balls sting pretty good, but are not generally fatal. Still some places consider then to be weapons. :surrender:

 

[dry ball john]

:surrender: Last summer while on patrol in a rough part of town, some enterprising young men decided to shoot FROZEN paint balls at a house.
I would consider those DANGEROUS weapons as to the damage they did. Ole dry ball john

 

[paulvallandigham]

I would not volunteer to be shot by a potatoe gun, either. But I don't consider them weapons. They would knock you on your butt, and probably break ribs if you were hit at fairly close range. It would depend on the size of the potatoe that came out of the PVC pipe.

 

[benvenuto]

If you want to kill someone in three days from peritonitis, a .22 round ball into the guts will do it. A quicker death might be possible point blank into the eye or nasal cavity (with cartridge arms this has been done a few times with .22 CB and flobert ammo).

Against a human opponent, and using blackpowder arms I would prefer a .58 round ball with 30-40 grains FFFG

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I will have to differ with you Paul concerning your statement that 'no handgun will knock a man down'. I have a .50 CVA Hawken replica that I have experimented with using heavy charges and a Minie- type slug. The recoil was tremondous, nearly flying out of a two-handed grip and eventually cracked the brass trigger gaurd! While this is not a BP gun, a buddy has a .50 AE that is near painful to shoot and only a strong man can hold onto it! I personally have shot chunks of firewood with it, weight estimated at 10-15 lbs., they went flying several feet! One I shot in a mudhole it blew the wood nearly 10 feet! A shot with that thing to the head will definitely 'knock a man down'! :shocked2: That thing is accurate too. He rarely shoots it, and I won't shoot more than a few rounds out of it, the recoil and muzzle blast will leave a man 'punch drunk'.

 

[paulvallandigham]

There are documented cases of people being hit with all manner of small arms rounds that kept on fighting. Again, it all depends on the condition of the human who is hit. His mental attitude about being shot, his state of sobriety, use of drugs, and even just religious fervor all can make a man take incredible amount of abuse before he ceases to fight.

Right now, the only firearm that seems to be able to put a man down fairly ocnsistently is a 12 gauge shooting slugs. But that is not a handgun. The new 50 caliber revolver cartridges have not yet been around long enough to be tested in real combat, so the jury is out. You have noted the trouble handling the recoil when shooting them. Its hard to believe anyone can shoot this accurately enough without a flinch developing so that it can be used in a combat situation.

The .357 shooting 125 grain jacketed Hollow Points has the best one shot stop record for handgun cartridges, with a torso hit. It even edges the heavier .44s, and .45s. Go figure?? I still can't find and volunteers for testing. :surrender:

The one black powder handgun that had a pretty good track record for stopping a man was the old Tower Flintlock pistol, in .62 caliber. With a round ball weighing 3/4 oz, and traveling at modest velocities, any torso hit would usually take a man off his horse. And that is from historical records from the British, and comments made by American historians after observing the pistol's use in shipboard fights, and in land battles. The pistols were smoothbores, with either a front bead, or no sights at all. They were heavy, and usually carried in saddle scabbards, hung over the horn of the saddle, in pairs. They were " point and shoot " weapons, and were used in conjunction with swords by cavalry troops, or " dragoons."

They were far too long, and heavy to be carried on a belt, so never found much favor with the walking public, who wanted a pistol for self defense, but had to resort to small calibers, and smaller guns.

The famous .41 Colt Deringer was a notorious killer because the bullets were outside lubricated, and the grease held onto all manner of pocket lint, and debris, which was pushed into the wound along with the bullet. The bullet could sometimes be removed, but the lint and debris caused a slow, painful death from peritonitis, because there were no antibiotics. The round also was so weak, that is could not send the ball completely through a man's body with any kind of a torso hit, so that a man facing someone holding a deringer was pretty assured that if the gun fired in his direction, and he took a bullet, he was going to die. That probably deterred more bad guys from pushing a gunfight, than all the other guns used in the American West. The little gun did not deliver a " punch ", or knock anyone down, unless a brain shot was taken across a card table, but its reputation for a mean dying gave it respect far beyond it mechanical and ballistics capabilities.

 

[BillinOregon]

I think a sensible minimum would be .36. Out of a rifled Colt Navy, Hickok killed a number of gents with the little ball and it ought to be similarly effective from a smoothbore. It would not be the optimum, but it darned sure would be a "weapon."

 

[Deadeye]

I have a video of a friend of mine, who weights
about 180, standing on 1 foot while being shot from about a foot away with a .308 win. rifle
having about 2800 ft. lbs. of energy, didn't even make him flinch much less knocking him down.
Yes, he was wearing a vest.
Getting shot in the head doesn't knock you down, it kills you and you fall down.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I stand corrected :surrender: if it 'blows your head clean off' you will fall down :bow:
And if a pugilist whacks the other fighter on the chin hard enough the other fighter will 'fall down' but it is ruled a 'knockdown' or 'knockout' if the one being struck does not regain his feet in time.

 

[Tinker2]

I have a smooth bore flint lock pistol that uses a .34 caliber
patched round ball. A great little gun for that I use it for.

I am not sure that I know what kind of answer your question
was Looking for, as far as a weapon is concerned.
Are you looking for a self-defense weapon?



Tinker2