smooth rifles - why?

[Lonegun1894]

Sounds much simpler to refresh one than I was thinking. Thanks for the information. I agree with you that the versatility/usefullness of the smoothbore is in large part due to the modern game laws, but since we have to follow them, we may as well take the good along with the bad. You said that you are no longer allowed to use that pistol on birds. I understand having to put up with senseless laws. Try this one. I am allowed to use a smoothbored OR a rifled shotgun, because both use shotgun shells of one form or another. But a ML has to be smoothbored to be legal for me to use, because a rifled one is a rifle and therefore "unsafe" and forbidden. :hmm: :youcrazy: I tried getting an explanation and was told by the official I asked this that that decision was made by someone of a higher paygrade who doesn't know enough to realize how wrong they are. It was worth a shot, but for now at least, I'm stuck with these rules that are supposed to make sense. A lot of these game regs make no sense, but we have to follow them. Having seen some of the pictures you posted of your hunting area, I think the lack of rifling would handicap you a lot more than it does me (and I'm assuming many of us), but we make do with what we have to. It beats watching tv, even if I have to pass on the occasional shot.

 

[hanshi]

That is correct.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've pondered this question so long that I finally gave in and built myself a Bucks County .54 smooth rifle just to see what it was good for. I've now used it a couple of years and I still don't know what it's good for. :haha:
Oh yes, granted it can do a lot but what can it do better than a rifle? The 18th century eastern woodlands were very heavily forested and long range shots were seldom needed, but just because a rifle may not have been "needed" is no reason not to use one. I've shot game with the rifle at distances where a smoothbore would have done just as well, but it would not have done any better.
I'm with Dan on this. I've had the experience of living out in the woods long term and "living off the land" to such extent as I practically could do. My primary hunting tool was a Savage M-24 with a .22 rifle barrel over a 20 gauge shotgun. I found that I hardly ever fired the shotgun. Subsistence hunting is very different from sport hunting. The "sport" would be ashamed to admit he shot a quail on the ground or a grouse off a tree limb. The subsistence hunter would just be thankful for the meat. I was subsistence hunting and found the smallbore rifle to be far more useful than the shotgun.
So I very well see Dan's point that if the smoothrifle was used primarily for aimed shots at stationary targets why blow off 200+ grains of lead shot and 50 grains of powder when a "squirrel rifle" could do the job with half the powder and 1/4 the lead? And for deer hunting at the ranges I would trust a smoothbore I would also trust a .40 caliber rifle, perhaps even a smaller bore.
I also built what I call a "foraging gun" with a .53 smoothbore barrel over a .45 rifle and after a bit of use I concluded I might just as well have reduced the weight and complexity by just skipping the smoothbore.
It appears that the smoothrifle was popular only in certain areas of Pennsylvania, not much seen in other regions and seldom seen after the start of the percussion era. Why it was ever seen is still a fair question.

 

[BrownBear]

...subsistence hunter....

I'm a user and not an historian. I've hunted with my smooth rifle (actually a GM 62 cal smoothbore barrel with sights, mounted on a Renegade) a lot, and the only place I can see it having any "use" is pure meat-in-the-pot carry.

The sights are fine for shot on sitting targets, but a royal PITA for moving targets such as I prefer- a "sport" use rather than subsistence. A guy more intent on meat than sport isn't going to take moving shots if he can help it, and for sitting shots the sights don't hurt a thing.

As for larger game with ball, it would depend entirely on your terrain. The loss of accuracy would be a handicap for the deer shooting subsistence hunter in my terrain, where shots are as likely beyond 50 as closer.

When it comes to pure subsistence hunting, I lean on the experience of my grandpap during the Depression. He owned a surplus 30-06, a 12 gauge and a 22 singleshot rifle. He told me he never once fired the 06 and used the 12 gauge only for flock shooting sitting bunches of quail or ducks, when careful use of the more expensive shells could result in several kills with a single shot.

For everything else, from deer to turkeys to single quail and ducks, he used the 22 single shot. He could get a whole box of 22 shorts for what he paid for a single 12 gauge shell.

I see parallels in his use and what a guy in the woods would do when the family was hungry. No sport at all, rather it was all about economics and efficiency. If I was picking my own subsistence muzzleloader, it would likely be one in the 36-45 cal range, with powder charges dropped for small game and bumped for deer. But the bore would be rifled for accurate small game use.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Sounds much simpler to refresh one than I was thinking. Thanks for the information. I agree with you that the versatility/usefullness of the smoothbore is in large part due to the modern game laws, but since we have to follow them, we may as well take the good along with the bad. You said that you are no longer allowed to use that pistol on birds. I understand having to put up with senseless laws. Try this one. I am allowed to use a smoothbored OR a rifled shotgun, because both use shotgun shells of one form or another. But a ML has to be smoothbored to be legal for me to use, because a rifled one is a rifle and therefore "unsafe" and forbidden. :hmm: :youcrazy: I tried getting an explanation and was told by the official I asked this that that decision was made by someone of a higher paygrade who doesn't know enough to realize how wrong they are. It was worth a shot, but for now at least, I'm stuck with these rules that are supposed to make sense. A lot of these game regs make no sense, but we have to follow them. Having seen some of the pictures you posted of your hunting area, I think the lack of rifling would handicap you a lot more than it does me (and I'm assuming many of us), but we make do with what we have to. It beats watching tv, even if I have to pass on the occasional shot.

Here in Wisconsin we have what is called the spring conservation congress meeting. At this meeting anyone can write up a change to something and present it. If it passes in your county, it then is put on the ballet for next years meeting. If it passes there it may become law. This spring meeting is not perfect, but it is way better than never having any say in our fish and game rules. The county I live in had always been a shotgun only area, but two years ago due to the spring meeting and a guy taking the time to present a change we can now use rifles.

I have been told we are the only state in the union that has this option.

 

[George]

To no one in particular....

History can be so annoying. In spite of all our good modern reasons why they were handicapping themselves and doing it wrong, the old dummies insisted on having their smooth rifles.

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
September 20, 1739
RUN away on the 6th Inst. from Thomas Rees, of Heydelburg Township, Lancaster County, a Servant Lad, ... Took with him a smooth Rifle Gun."

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 26, 1769
RUN away from his bail, ... he took with him a smooth rifle gun..."

The Pennsylvania Gazette
February 17, 1773
To be SOLD very cheap, for cash only, ... A QUANTITY of this country and German made RIFLES, both cut and smooth bores, in the best manner;"

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
May 3, 1775
They had and took away with them a country square barrelled, smooth bore GUN, rifle stocked, one pistol, and other firearms;"

Spence

 

[cynthialee]

I am becoming more convinced that they are livestock guns. For shooting livestock. Don't need a rifle to put one in a cow/pig brain at point blank.

 

[Robby]

Thank you Spence!
Robby

 

[LaBonte]

yep as Spence noted smooth rifles were at times purpose built and did not start as re-bored rifles (a 20th Century gun collectors "reasoning/assumption" with no real basis in pre-20th century historical facts).

even the famed Hawken Brothers whose rifles were re-nowned offered them:
In June 1839, one of the American Fur company'semployees bought from "Jacob and Sam. Hawkins" a "smooth bord rifle $22".

and as Dan noted above so did the Henry Company of Boullton, PA build them - they may not have been liked" by the locals but they were popular else where enough to be produced so for some folks there was reason:
Ramsay Crooks of the American Fur Company in a letter dated August 22, 1840. addressed to James Henry "We said in ours of July 29 that the smooth bored rifles would not suit us. The more we reflect upon it the more we are satisfied they will not answer at all for our Indian trade. When the Indians use a rifle it must be a real one, and they will not carry a smooth bore of such weight so long as they can get a North West Gun."

And FWIW - I've been shooting muzzleloaders since 1962 and am pretty much a dyed in the wool rifleman, but a few years ago I trade for a 28 gauge smooth rifle and as long as I do MY part it will keep 5 shots inside 3" at 75 yards. Also it only weighs 6.5 lbs instead of the 10.5 lbs my 28 bore rifle weighs and at age 60 and at 7,000' plus above seal level that's nice because I can hunt longer without as much fatigue.

Also smooth bores are not always as inaccurate even at long range as some imply - the longest shot I have ever taken on big game, was a going away shot on a wounded elk (rifle shooter hit too far back at 60 yards) - my gun a cut down 11 bore Potsdam Musket (built as a flinter in 1820 and later converted to percussion in 1943). I hit it at 110 yards - that big old roundball backed by 110 grns of 2F, went up the spout so to speak and wound up buried in the chest - about 3' feet of critter - he stopped less than 20' from where I hit em.

As for versatility - I use the right tool for the job rather than having anything a do everything tool - some guns are a bit more versatile than others dependent on view point, but in general each is more appropriate for a particular usage.

 

[rich pierce]

Smooth rifles spanned a lot of years and I think it may be a mistake to assume the same forces were at work in the different eras. If you look at the William Antes-attributed rifle in the Moravian Guns book (also #17 in Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America Volume 1), it's a big-bore gun with an octagon to round barrel. This is very different from a rifle-built gun that has a heavy barrel, is under .50, and has a smooth bore. Such an early gun is likely great for protection loaded with buck and ball or buckshot, or even round ball. Good for pot hunting.

 

[SgtSchutzen]

Couldn`t cost have played a part in the smooth rifles existance?

Before the industrial revolution when most everything was made with hand labor it would have taken alot of time and extra work to rifle a gun barrel. All that extra work would had to have made a rifled barrel cost more than a smooth bored one. Back then, just like now, I`ll bet there were folks that didn`t want to pay more for the best technology if they had always made do with basic tools?

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Couldn`t cost have played a part in the smooth rifles existance?

Before the industrial revolution when most everything was made with hand labor it would have taken alot of time and extra work to rifle a gun barrel. All that extra work would had to have made a rifled barrel cost more than a smooth bored one. Back then, just like now, I`ll bet there were folks that didn`t want to pay more for the best technology if they had always made do with basic tools?

For a plain "poorboy" trying to cut every penny that could be the case. But there are many smoothrifles which are quite well built and highly ornate. It doesn't seem likely that a fellow willing to spring for first rate work by a renowned smith would skimp on the bore.
And while many folks may say that for their purposes a smoothbore is just as good as a rifle, the question still remains "what can a smoothbore do better than a rifle"? The only thing I see is the smoothbore can fire a load of birdshot so I have to think that was it's intended use.

 

[cynthialee]

So they do not do anything better than an actual rifle other than they can shoot shot also.

Work gun. Farm gun. Home defence.

The smooth rifle fills the same niche as my modern .410 single shot. It is a cheep and reliable firearm.

If something is stalking my chickens and I have no clue what is bugging them, I grab my .410 as it is very versatile.
What ever it is bugging my birds can be dealt with with the smooth bore. Coyote or bobcat? Slug. Hawk? Bird shot. Neighbors dogs? Squirl shot in the ground to make noise. Anything bigger? Run!? :haha:
Them smooth bore rifles have the same capabilities. Something is up with the livestock you grab your smoothbore rifle. Load it acording to the threat and deal with the situation.

Also they can be used as a make do hunting piece. In the hands of a sneaky hunter who can get in close it really doesn't matter that he is 'underguned'. Shot placement is key.

Home defence, the smooth rifle is lighter than a musket. It is easier to hit a target with a smooth rifle than the military muskets of the day. And it does less property damage on a miss.

Less powder and less lead. It is cost efficient.

So my thinking is they were just working guns for around the farm/ranch. The smooth rifle was the .410 of it's day.

 

[George]

The only thing I see is the smoothbore can fire a load of birdshot so I have to think that was it's intended use.

And yet we have indications that they used them for both ball and shot.

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
December 11, 1735
From Frankford we hear, that on Sunday the 23d past a Lad near that Place, drawing a Charge out of a Gun that had been charg'd for Deer, in order to prepare for shooting Squirrels, the Gun went off and shatter'd his Hand extreamly. This is the second Accident of the kind that has happen'd this Year."

Spence

 

[rich pierce]

Couldn`t cost have played a part in the smooth rifles existance?

Before the industrial revolution when most everything was made with hand labor it would have taken alot of time and extra work to rifle a gun barrel. All that extra work would had to have made a rifled barrel cost more than a smooth bored one. Back then, just like now, I`ll bet there were folks that didn`t want to pay more for the best technology if they had always made do with basic tools?

Good point. Rifling a barrel is several days work and usually requires an apprentice as well. But as noted below some smooth rifles were fancy so in some cases were preferred for reasons other than cost alone it seems.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The only thing I see is the smoothbore can fire a load of birdshot so I have to think that was it's intended use.

And yet we have indications that they used them for both ball and shot.

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
December 11, 1735
From Frankford we hear, that on Sunday the 23d past a Lad near that Place, drawing a Charge out of a Gun that had been charg'd for Deer, in order to prepare for shooting Squirrels, the Gun went off and shatter'd his Hand extreamly. This is the second Accident of the kind that has happen'd this Year."

Spence

Well I don't doubt they were used for both shot and ball, my point was that if ball were your only interest why would you sacrifice the accuracy of a rifle? I can only believe that the attraction to a smoothbore, then or now, must be the ability to use shot in addition to ball.
But I wonder about the quote you posted, why do you assume this indicates a smoothrifle loaded with ball? It only says the "gun" was "charged for deer", could just as well indicate a musket or fowling piece loaded with buckshot.

 

[George]

But I wonder about the quote you posted, why do you assume this indicates a smoothrifle loaded with ball? It only says the "gun" was "charged for deer", could just as well indicate a musket or fowling piece loaded with buckshot.

Yes, that's true. I wasn't trying to say it was a smooth rifle. I was responding to your post in which you said, "The only thing I see is the smoothbore can fire a load of birdshot so I have to think that was it's intended use." If by 'smoothbore' you specifically meant 'smooth rifle', then I lost the trail.

Spence

 

[nkbj]

And TC was smart enough to offer the .56.

 

[cynthialee]

And TC was smart enough to offer the .56.

I have only seen 1 of these barrels.
Not that I have been at this very long but it doesn't seem to be a common item.

 

[George T.]

I have enjoyed reading these posts. One thing though some seem to believe that they are very inaccurate. I had thought that as well untill I saw the target posted in the "my visit with Tip Curtis". I know that it's a record but it's darned good shooing! Geo. T.