Smoothbore and Mountain Men?

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My great grandpa was in on one of the captures of Geronimo. Its said that he always claimed that the fastest way to end a fight against the Apache was for them to lose one or two warriors. When your numbers are few losing 1 can mean a lot. The hard part was getting the 1.
 
There are lots of recorded instances where hostiles liked to keep out of rifle shot. By the time they are in shotgun shot, whoever it was would be in real trouble I think.
Many of the hostile tribes didn't like to lose braves, and getting too close to rifles was one way to do it. It took all the fun out of hair -raising.
I grew up a smooth -bore shooter, but it the wide open, a rifle still makes sense.
I wonder why the French and the HBC boys didn’t figure that out. The US set up factory to trade to the Indians and contracted rifle makers to supply them. When the government got out of the fur trade business the fur companies went right on buying rifles for to trade to Indians, mostly from famous names, Derringer Henry,Leman ... but Indians went right on buying smoothies. Leman would even copy the NWG down to the proof marks, and would put trade gun ramrod pipes on his rifles.
It’s a wonder we had to fight them Indian wars and deal with the Brits over the Oregon, we could have just waited for them to starve to death.
 
Perhaps one reason the natives stayed with smoothies was because of a supply issue Lead could only be picked up through trade or conquest. I have an old John Probin double from 1870s that the barrels are wafer thin. The man who used it was a market hunter I So Cal in the 1870s and would use gravel if he ran out of shot. Gravel or maybe a leather patched stone could still be used in a fusee. Just a thought.
 
I wonder why the French and the HBC boys didn’t figure that out. The US set up factory to trade to the Indians and contracted rifle makers to supply them. When the government got out of the fur trade business the fur companies went right on buying rifles for to trade to Indians, mostly from famous names, Derringer Henry,Leman ... but Indians went right on buying smoothies. Leman would even copy the NWG down to the proof marks, and would put trade gun ramrod pipes on his rifles.
It’s a wonder we had to fight them Indian wars and deal with the Brits over the Oregon, we could have just waited for them to starve to death.
In the areas around the Great Lakes and the lake country in Canada one could feed one's self with a shot gun shooting waterfowl on the water. Its a lot tougher to do in the Great Plains. Parkman describes his guide killed two Buffalo in two shots at 175 yards. Not possible with a trade gun. The French and English were not rifle cultures AND who says none of the British and HBC people had rifles?
The British that came out here and hung with the mountain men DID figure it out before they even left England. Read Ruxton and Stewart. AND remember that there was more money in selling natives smooth bores over the rifle this is documented back to the 1740s. Neither the traders or the military wanted the natives armed with the rifle. Now. There ARE cultural differences among the NATIVES. Some in the East, the Shawnee and the Delaware are examples, were damned good with the rifle. The natives in the West were more enthralled with "medicine" in many cases and it seems were never that interested in the rifle. Running buffalo with a horse did not require a rifle, or even a gun for that matter. Parkman in the Oregon Trail describes running buffalo with a trade gun. Russell tells us of a large number of buffalo being killing without any powder being burned at all. So what we have is the TRADERS PUSHING trade guns both East and West because they SOLD MORE AMMUNITION in this case. Read the Indian Trade Rifle information in De Witt Bailey's "British Military Flintlock RIfles". Then we have the rifle culture in the United States and the Colonies. Rifle matches were the primary source or entertainment was rifle shooting. It is IMPOSSIBLE to compete in a rifle match as fired in the 18th and 19th c with a smoothbore. Its a COMPLETE waste of time. If you dig into the right books you will find accounts of men getting off flatboats in Ohio and Kentucky with a fowling piece being laughed at.
Now we come to the "cult of the smoothbore" as I like to call it. There are those you INSIST the smooth bore is more "versatile" than the rifle. Its not. Except in their own minds. Its a specialized firearm. If it was more efficient why did the small bore "squirrel rifle" come into being? Most people on the frontier had no practical use for one. First off the ML smooth bore at the time was UNCHOKED and did at best a cylinder pattern. Then we have the shot problem. Until the wide spread use of the shot tower the shot was, by modern standards, of poor to extremely poor quality. They used cut shot and shot dropped a few inches into water that had "tails". None of it was round. None of the guns were choked. Read some the things the British tried in shotgun barrels to get better performance in ML guns. Then the "smooth rifle" a more useless idea I cannot imagine. But many were made it seems. Has anyone else here tried patterning a 50 cal smooth rifle with small shot and then accuracy tested it to see if its possible kill a squirrel every shot at 25 yards with a ECONOMICAL RB load? My 50 cal smooth rifle patterned poorly at 25 with small shot and would hit a squirrels head target maybe 2 or 3 out of 5 at 25 yards from a rest. AND the best load with a .480 rb was 110 gr of ff hardly economical for small game. BUT the adherents to "cult of the smooth bore" don't want to go there or the JUG choke the things, which was not known in the mountain man era or at best was not common. They also cite the wills and probate and ect of people saying look at all the SBs in the documents. Don't mean a thing. First remember the militia laws REQUIRED a gun preferably something that would take a standard musket ball and a supply of ammo. A lot of the people, the majority in any community, had little use for a gun in the first place and they sure as heck are not buying a rifle to meet the militia law requirement. AND the rifles were often passed down as the original owner aged and could not longer use it either due to eyesight or infirmity. OR it was bored for shot when the eyesight failed if the owner hunted. OR it was bored for shot because it was so large in the bore that it was impractical for the needs of the days. Remember that in many agricultural areas the inhabitants conducted drives and killed every wild animal they saw to protect crops. So there was little hunting in many areas anyway. There is a lot of misinformation or at least lack of understanding concerning the ML rifle today. Besides Bailey I recommend reading "The Frontier Rifleman" and if possible "Colonial Riflemen in The American Revolution" By Huddleston. AND "Firearms of The American West: 1803-1865" by Garavaglia and Worman. Then maybe read some of the various accounts of Mountain Men standing off natives on the prairie using superior accuracy and range to keep themselves safe. If you have not done the research and hunted in THE WEST then you don't understand. The photo might help. Remembering there are FAR more trees in the west now than in 1830.
IMGP0085.jpg
 
John Palliser, (at Ft. Union in the 1840s) _Solitary Rambles and Adventures of a Hunter in the Prairies_, written 1847

“Of guns, the most valuable and indispensable is the plain, smooth-bore, double-barreled gun, about fourteen to twelve in the bore…. For close and dangerous shooting I know nothing equal to the double-barreled, smooth-bore gun. You can load it more rapidly, and handle it more quickly and dexterously than any other, also at the same time sufficiently depend on it for accuracy as far as sixty or seventy yards.”

Henry A. Boller,: Letters & Journal. Mattison, Ray H.., ed.
1858-62

“I also, under advice, exchanged my shot gun at Albright’s for a much heavier one, carrying a heavier bullet; Capt. Todd & other mountaineers recommended to me a heavy double smooth bore as being a more useful gun than the rifle; adapted to a greater variety of game."

Spence
 
Well I have been doing research as well as asking questions of those who know a lot more than I do. Opinions are all over the board. The bottom line is that either type of long gun is acceptable at a rendezvous now as well as back in the days of the Rocky Mountain Fur. Were smooth bores the ideal weapon 200 years ago out on the plains? Probably not, but they were useful in the timber. I am sure if these hardy souls were alive today they would be carrying the best centerfire rifle they could get. There are many photographs of “Livereating Johnson” with a breech loading Sharps, and Winchester lever actions. Granted he came to the mountains later than the heyday of the fur trapping but he started with a percussion ML rifle and he modernized as he aged. It is the same with many of the early mountain men, moving on from flint locks to percussions and Hawken rifles. Jim Bridger was known to carry a Henry trade rifle but later he owned a Hawken, Kit Carson, the same thing, John Hatcher, again the same thing. Those that lived to reach a ripe old age always looked at the lated technology to keep themselves going.

As for the west and knowing it. I grew up in the west. In fact besides a couple of trips to visit my mom’s family in Norway I have never been east of the Mississippi. I have hunted and enjoyed the west. I know how to hunt in the barren lands of the prairie and the desert southwest. I grew up hunting in the eastern Sierra’s and the White mountains, I now live in Washington state and hunt on the east side of the Cascades as much as I can, out on the Palouse and the open lands. I intend to retire in a few years and find a place in Montana where I can get off the grid and live life to the fullest.
Thankfully we don’t need to worry about hostile tribes attacking us from ambush or raiding our camps today. But the allure of the life of the mountains is strong in me and I want to do it right. Smoothbore and rifle. Both acceptable and both workable. One more ideal than the other but both good guns.
 
In the areas around the Great Lakes and the lake country in Canada one could feed one's self with a shot gun shooting waterfowl on the water. Its a lot tougher to do in the Great Plains. Parkman describes his guide killed two Buffalo in two shots at 175 yards. Not possible with a trade gun. The French and English were not rifle cultures AND who says none of the British and HBC people had rifles?
The British that came out here and hung with the mountain men DID figure it out before they even left England. Read Ruxton and Stewart. AND remember that there was more money in selling natives smooth bores over the rifle this is documented back to the 1740s. Neither the traders or the military wanted the natives armed with the rifle. Now. There ARE cultural differences among the NATIVES. Some in the East, the Shawnee and the Delaware are examples, were damned good with the rifle. The natives in the West were more enthralled with "medicine" in many cases and it seems were never that interested in the rifle. Running buffalo with a horse did not require a rifle, or even a gun for that matter. Parkman in the Oregon Trail describes running buffalo with a trade gun. Russell tells us of a large number of buffalo being killing without any powder being burned at all. So what we have is the TRADERS PUSHING trade guns both East and West because they SOLD MORE AMMUNITION in this case. Read the Indian Trade Rifle information in De Witt Bailey's "British Military Flintlock RIfles". Then we have the rifle culture in the United States and the Colonies. Rifle matches were the primary source or entertainment was rifle shooting. It is IMPOSSIBLE to compete in a rifle match as fired in the 18th and 19th c with a smoothbore. Its a COMPLETE waste of time. If you dig into the right books you will find accounts of men getting off flatboats in Ohio and Kentucky with a fowling piece being laughed at.
Now we come to the "cult of the smoothbore" as I like to call it. There are those you INSIST the smooth bore is more "versatile" than the rifle. Its not. Except in their own minds. Its a specialized firearm. If it was more efficient why did the small bore "squirrel rifle" come into being? Most people on the frontier had no practical use for one. First off the ML smooth bore at the time was UNCHOKED and did at best a cylinder pattern. Then we have the shot problem. Until the wide spread use of the shot tower the shot was, by modern standards, of poor to extremely poor quality. They used cut shot and shot dropped a few inches into water that had "tails". None of it was round. None of the guns were choked. Read some the things the British tried in shotgun barrels to get better performance in ML guns. Then the "smooth rifle" a more useless idea I cannot imagine. But many were made it seems. Has anyone else here tried patterning a 50 cal smooth rifle with small shot and then accuracy tested it to see if its possible kill a squirrel every shot at 25 yards with a ECONOMICAL RB load? My 50 cal smooth rifle patterned poorly at 25 with small shot and would hit a squirrels head target maybe 2 or 3 out of 5 at 25 yards from a rest. AND the best load with a .480 rb was 110 gr of ff hardly economical for small game. BUT the adherents to "cult of the smooth bore" don't want to go there or the JUG choke the things, which was not known in the mountain man era or at best was not common. They also cite the wills and probate and ect of people saying look at all the SBs in the documents. Don't mean a thing. First remember the militia laws REQUIRED a gun preferably something that would take a standard musket ball and a supply of ammo. A lot of the people, the majority in any community, had little use for a gun in the first place and they sure as heck are not buying a rifle to meet the militia law requirement. AND the rifles were often passed down as the original owner aged and could not longer use it either due to eyesight or infirmity. OR it was bored for shot when the eyesight failed if the owner hunted. OR it was bored for shot because it was so large in the bore that it was impractical for the needs of the days. Remember that in many agricultural areas the inhabitants conducted drives and killed every wild animal they saw to protect crops. So there was little hunting in many areas anyway. There is a lot of misinformation or at least lack of understanding concerning the ML rifle today. Besides Bailey I recommend reading "The Frontier Rifleman" and if possible "Colonial Riflemen in The American Revolution" By Huddleston. AND "Firearms of The American West: 1803-1865" by Garavaglia and Worman. Then maybe read some of the various accounts of Mountain Men standing off natives on the prairie using superior accuracy and range to keep themselves safe. If you have not done the research and hunted in THE WEST then you don't understand. The photo might help. Remembering there are FAR more trees in the west now than in 1830.View attachment 22500
R.J.A.Levinge, an army officer wrote for an Englishman on the Canadian plains to choose a smooth bore,”which throws a ball true at sixty yards,” he was writing in 1847 and mentions patching the ball ( wrapping it in the ends of worn out kid glove fingers).
To present the Indians as dumb buyers of what ever was more profitable for the big fur companies to sell is a bit of an error.
Indians were very picky about what the bought, and woe be the trader that didn’t have what they wanted. In 1600 a ship owner could trade what he had and do ok, no settlements in the country no competition between ships anchored in a bay. By 1700 things had changed, there was a trader on every corner as it were. Compitition was tough and traders worked hard to have what the Indians demanded. After invest in supplies many traders found what they had went out of style last year.
The NWG itself is a good example. No matter who made it they looked the same, because Indians demanded it.
Running buffs was said to be a fine sport (it would scare me to death) and Indians charging across the dusty plain is a romantic image. Howsomever it requires a horse. There will still plains and mountain tribes that got their first horses after 1800.
The plains culture was a Buffalo culture, it was the basis for their economy. They did not depend solely on buffs though. Deer, elk,moose, antalope, small game water fowl all went in the pot.
Nomadic or farmer they hunted a lots of meat besides running buffs. They did it for a year or two with out even a smoothie, and kept grabbing them smoothies when they could, finely they forced American fur traders to provide them with ‘London fuzz’s’.
Your ammo argument may be valid but I see reason to doubt it. Many NWGs were made in .54 or .58. A .54 rifle carries the same ball as a .54 fusil.
Even shooting a .54 a hundred shots will be about three pounds of lead. Compared to five for a 20bore. The profit margin in selling two extra pounds of lead per hundred shot ( powder charge was about the same) was probably not worth the risk of driving your customers in to the hands of a rifle selling ‘Yankee trader’. In fact the opposite took place. The Yankee trader had to get him a supply of fusils to avoid loosing his market to the Brit.
Looking at smooth rifles,we used to think they were rebored worn out guns. Now we know they were in fact made that way. “Rifle mounted fusils’ was what they were sometimes called in days gone by. And market ledgers show lots of shot, beaver shot and swan shot and snipe shot too , with some buck shot for good measure sold all over the frontier.
Photos like you posted show a world the openness that once was even more common on the plains then today. But your a hunter. Do you look at that terrain and think ‘ wow that horizon is a long way away’ or do you see it and all the nooks and crannies that you can move through, ghosting on the wind?
Before the first powder burned on that plain Indians were eating antalope killed there with atlatls.
 
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I can’t quote any references, yet, but I have to believe that for meat hunting for survival, long shots were rare even with a rifle. When you have one shot and need to eat, you want to make that shot count. One reason I’ve always hunted with open sight, granted some of my hunting rifles have receiver sights none have scopes, is to limit the chance of wounding game versus dropping it fast. As I’ve stated, I can’t see where a person is truly that handicapped using a fusil if they “Know” the gun, which I am sure anyone who used it for survival would.

Thanks again for this great discussion. It’s really good to read all the differing opinions.
LC
 
I recently read that later on the western indians didn't want the smoothbores. I've also read that one advantage of the smoothbore was that even rocks would be shot when in need!
 
This is a subject with maybe as many answers as original plainsmen or mountain trappers.
They all liked what they did for good reason.

On the prairie east of where we live, there are very occasionally found cut -down trade -guns used for buffalo running.
One was found east of Red Deer AB. I recall seeing it at one of Bud Haynes auctions. The stock was real checked from lying out forever, but the gun would have come back into working order pretty easily.
The other was found on a friends ranch south of Hanna, near Finnegan. I guess if you lost your gun running buffalo, by the time you worked your way out of the critters, it might be real hard to find it again.
BTW, the old buffalo traces show as clear as ever from the air....winding across the bald prairie ignoring the fences that cross them now.
Flew that country in his 1947 Stinson one time.
Tipi circles showed very clearly from up there as well. Grass was Still greener inside the stone rings, where the hard moss had been crushed.
 
R.J.A.Levinge, an army officer wrote for an Englishman on the Canadian plains to choose a smooth bore,”which throws a ball true at sixty yards,” he was writing in 1847 and mentions patching the ball ( wrapping it in the ends of worn out kid glove fingers).
To present the Indians as dumb buyers of what ever was more profitable for the big fur companies to sell is a bit of an error.
Indians were very picky about what the bought, and woe be the trader that didn’t have what they wanted. In 1600 a ship owner could trade what he had and do ok, no settlements in the country no competition between ships anchored in a bay. By 1700 things had changed, there was a trader on every corner as it were. Compitition was tough and traders worked hard to have what the Indians demanded. After invest in supplies many traders found what they had went out of style last year.
The NWG itself is a good example. No matter who made it they looked the same, because Indians demanded it.
Running buffs was said to be a fine sport (it would scare me to death) and Indians charging across the dusty plain is a romantic image. Howsomever it requires a horse. There will still plains and mountain tribes that got their first horses after 1800.
The plains culture was a Buffalo culture, it was the basis for their economy. They did not depend solely on buffs though. Deer, elk,moose, antalope, small game water fowl all went in the pot.
Nomadic or farmer they hunted a lots of meat besides running buffs. They did it for a year or two with out even a smoothie, and kept grabbing them smoothies when they could, finely they forced American fur traders to provide them with ‘London fuzz’s’.
Your ammo argument may be valid but I see reason to doubt it. Many NWGs were made in .54 or .58. A .54 rifle carries the same ball as a .54 fusil.
Even shooting a .54 a hundred shots will be about three pounds of lead. Compared to five for a 20bore. The profit margin in selling two extra pounds of lead per hundred shot ( powder charge was about the same) was probably not worth the risk of driving your customers in to the hands of a rifle selling ‘Yankee trader’. In fact the opposite took place. The Yankee trader had to get him a supply of fusils to avoid loosing his market to the Brit.
Looking at smooth rifles,we used to think they were rebored worn out guns. Now we know they were in fact made that way. “Rifle mounted fusils’ was what they were sometimes called in days gone by. And market ledgers show lots of shot, beaver shot and swan shot and snipe shot too , with some buck shot for good measure sold all over the frontier.
Photos like you posted show a world the openness that once was even more common on the plains then today. But your a hunter. Do you look at that terrain and think ‘ wow that horizon is a long way away’ or do you see it and all the nooks and crannies that you can move through, ghosting on the wind?
Before the first powder burned on that plain Indians were eating antalope killed there with atlatls.
I would LOVE to see someone hunt White Tailed Deer or Antelope with an Atlatl. It would be pure dumb luck to get either with an atlatl. Way too much arm movement to make this work. Just the sound of the bow string will cause a WT to "duck". I have had Mule Deer who had me fixed in a stare move at the pan flash, sometimes enough "dodge" the ball at 50-60 yards. I think this is why that weapon died out with the megafauna. It was great for huge critters not so great for something like an Antelope which is not only prone to leave at high speed but seldom lets anything get within a hundred yards and they have about 8x vision to boot.
Smooth bores were with every large group going West. However, the hunting, for the most part was with rifles. Lewis and Clark had muskets, they had some "fusils" including at least one "elegant" fusil they lost in the flash flood at Great Falls IIRC. But they hunted with rifles from all accounts. When going overland during the Great Falls portages the people with arms were using the "short rifle".
I was not stating the natives were stupid. For whatever reason a great many in the East and the West liked the Trade Gun or other smoothbore. And as previously stated the Traders and the Miltary from at least 1740 on preferred it that way. Military officers said they were bad due to the way the natives made war. Chapter 6 in "British Military Flintlock Rifles" covers native use prior to 1783. Chapter 16 extends to 1840. In fact I believe it was illegal to sell rifles to the natives at the time of the French and Indian War and probably later. But most people ignored the law.
Actually the standard bore trade gun would use a 1/2 ounce ball if it were patched. And if you DIDN'T patch it and carried it muzzle down horse back its likely going to unload itself. The 1/2 ounce trade ball was a stock item. If you try to patch a 1/2 ounce ball in a 54 smooth I wish you luck. Meek told of the Natives using blanket wadding but if it was a patches or wadding it hard to say. But the complaint of cavalry officers of ALL the military smooth bores was that if "slung" as carbines were going to unload themselves in a few miles. And I am sure this is why there was never a Minie ball Carbine. Now civilians were unlikely to carry any long gun on a sling horse back. But they will tend to hang muzzle low if carried on a loop in the saddle horn and barrel heavy guns would go vertical or nearly so from 1870s photos I have seen. So if carrying the gun in this way it might be a good idea to patch the ball. Shooting small game with a shotgun takes a lot of lead for what you get, especially with open bored guns and unless they are flock shot on the ground on water its a great waste of lead. If you were at a post or on a keelboat the weight was of little importance. But if you were out on your own and buying your own powder and lead it might be a different matter. "Firearms of The American West 1803-1865" covers smoothbores very well. Sill most mentions of smoothbores is in the reference of night guards etc and they are not the primary arms in any expedition so far as I can tell. If you are in a small group of 2-3 people you better not let the natives find you shotgun or not. It was common practice to stop, build a fire, eat, then after dark pack up and go another 3-5 miles or more and sleeping in a "cold" camp so that there were no surprises in the night.
The English..... The English makers almost universally used the idea that a larger ball needed a faster twist and many 62-72 caliber rifles had twists in the length of the barrel. And since the barrels were often under 30" by the 1830s it made these rifle nearly useless for hunting since they could not use more the may 60-70 grains of powder without stripping the patch making the rifle low velocity and almost useless for hunting anything at any distance with the "proper load". This even though the slow twist 20 bore was well proven by Baker. As a result many, many Englishmen used smoothbores for heavy game in Africa and India until the advent of the metallic cartridges. Selous was using 4 bore smoothbore percussions in the 1870s. If you read Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" from the 1850s you will a much better explanation of this problem than I will bother with here. If we read "The Oregon Trail" we learn the Parkman and his guide were rifle armed while Shaw, Parkman's companion, had poor eyesight, IIRC, and had a shotgun he shot balls from. But when the guide went off to kill buffalo for meat he took Parkman's rifle along with his own. Not Shaw's double shotgun.
Clerks and such around posts and forts often used smooth mores to hunt birds and other game. However, the balls for a 16 or 12 bore shot gun weigh a LOT more than those for a 50-54 rifle. I have a rifle that uses a 16 to the pound, one ounce, ball and its not a good idea to toss too many in the pouch. A 69 is worse. Now if a 54 caliber rifle will kill anything you are likely to hunt why pack around the extra lead? 5 pounds of lead will run quite awhile at 32 to the pound at 16 to the pound not so many. J.J. Henry tells us from 1775 when he was enroute to Quebec that he had 70 balls in his pouch and the rifle was apparently smaller then 48 caliber. 70 balls at 45 to the pound will weight about a pound and 1/2. Seventy 16 to the pound balls will weigh 4 3/8 pounds and will require about twice the powder. My rifle with a 1 ounce ball needs 140 grains off FF to make 1600 fps with a Knock breech and 30" barrel. Which gives it a decent trajectory to 110-120 yards. Now will it kill better than a 45 or 32 to the pound rifle? Yeah. But in shooting deer its not twice as good. I would prefer it for Elk over a 50-54. But both these kill elk well with proper shot placement so why carry the extra lead and powder if you are maybe 1000 miles from a resupply? 1840s at Ft Union is a far cry from 1830 at Jackson Hole or Three Forks of the Missouri or even out on the plains of Kansas or Nebraska.
Then we have the self-defense aspect. For details I suggest you look to Osborne Russell for his accounts of fights with the natives, including Pierre's Hole and look at the casualty rates. The Pierre's Hole fight was pretty close range thus supposedly negating the rifles advantage. It was still grossly one sided. Then we have Tecumseh trading in his trade gun for a rifle before Fallen Timbers. Apparently he though the rifle was a better idea. So far as nooks and crannies. Yep I use terrain a lot. But when you are sneaking on some deer and one gets up you did not see and she is 100 yards or just a little more. I'm stuck, in full view. Since I'm hunting a doe anyway I do a 100 yard offhand shot. Trust me I have tried this with a smooth bore too. But the results were not the same. I hit her a little higher than I was holding but when went down in her tracks. I have killed deer and antelope from 30 yards or so to 150 over the years. And since I don't know how far the shot might be I gave up on the Trade gun about 40 years ago and for several reasons. It was great at breaking rocks out to a pretty fair distance and shot good on paper. But after all the work it takes to get a shot, like crawling across a stubble field. Knowing the gun and still missing, shooting from prone rock solid? Nope... Have not shot at a critter with a smooth bore since. At the distances many shoot deer in the East from stands I can kill deer with a rifled pistol and have in the past.
P1020817.jpeg

While is earlier than the Mtn Man era these paragraphs make some of my points, including that the rifle is more efficient. Its from "Bailey".
IMG_8123.jpg
 
I would LOVE to see someone hunt White Tailed Deer or Antelope with an Atlatl. It would be pure dumb luck to get either with an atlatl. Way too much arm movement to make this work. Just the sound of the bow string will cause a WT to "duck". I have had Mule Deer who had me fixed in a stare move at the pan flash, sometimes enough "dodge" the ball at 50-60 yards. I think this is why that weapon died out with the megafauna. It was great for huge critters not so great for something like an Antelope which is not only prone to leave at high speed but seldom lets anything get within a hundred yards and they have about 8x vision to boot.
Smooth bores were with every large group going West. However, the hunting, for the most part was with rifles. Lewis and Clark had muskets, they had some "fusils" including at least one "elegant" fusil they lost in the flash flood at Great Falls IIRC. But they hunted with rifles from all accounts. When going overland during the Great Falls portages the people with arms were using the "short rifle".
I was not stating the natives were stupid. For whatever reason a great many in the East and the West liked the Trade Gun or other smoothbore. And as previously stated the Traders and the Miltary from at least 1740 on preferred it that way. Military officers said they were bad due to the way the natives made war. Chapter 6 in "British Military Flintlock Rifles" covers native use prior to 1783. Chapter 16 extends to 1840. In fact I believe it was illegal to sell rifles to the natives at the time of the French and Indian War and probably later. But most people ignored the law.
Actually the standard bore trade gun would use a 1/2 ounce ball if it were patched. And if you DIDN'T patch it and carried it muzzle down horse back its likely going to unload itself. The 1/2 ounce trade ball was a stock item. If you try to patch a 1/2 ounce ball in a 54 smooth I wish you luck. Meek told of the Natives using blanket wadding but if it was a patches or wadding it hard to say. But the complaint of cavalry officers of ALL the military smooth bores was that if "slung" as carbines were going to unload themselves in a few miles. And I am sure this is why there was never a Minie ball Carbine. Now civilians were unlikely to carry any long gun on a sling horse back. But they will tend to hang muzzle low if carried on a loop in the saddle horn and barrel heavy guns would go vertical or nearly so from 1870s photos I have seen. So if carrying the gun in this way it might be a good idea to patch the ball. Shooting small game with a shotgun takes a lot of lead for what you get, especially with open bored guns and unless they are flock shot on the ground on water its a great waste of lead. If you were at a post or on a keelboat the weight was of little importance. But if you were out on your own and buying your own powder and lead it might be a different matter. "Firearms of The American West 1803-1865" covers smoothbores very well. Sill most mentions of smoothbores is in the reference of night guards etc and they are not the primary arms in any expedition so far as I can tell. If you are in a small group of 2-3 people you better not let the natives find you shotgun or not. It was common practice to stop, build a fire, eat, then after dark pack up and go another 3-5 miles or more and sleeping in a "cold" camp so that there were no surprises in the night.
The English..... The English makers almost universally used the idea that a larger ball needed a faster twist and many 62-72 caliber rifles had twists in the length of the barrel. And since the barrels were often under 30" by the 1830s it made these rifle nearly useless for hunting since they could not use more the may 60-70 grains of powder without stripping the patch making the rifle low velocity and almost useless for hunting anything at any distance with the "proper load". This even though the slow twist 20 bore was well proven by Baker. As a result many, many Englishmen used smoothbores for heavy game in Africa and India until the advent of the metallic cartridges. Selous was using 4 bore smoothbore percussions in the 1870s. If you read Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" from the 1850s you will a much better explanation of this problem than I will bother with here. If we read "The Oregon Trail" we learn the Parkman and his guide were rifle armed while Shaw, Parkman's companion, had poor eyesight, IIRC, and had a shotgun he shot balls from. But when the guide went off to kill buffalo for meat he took Parkman's rifle along with his own. Not Shaw's double shotgun.
Clerks and such around posts and forts often used smooth mores to hunt birds and other game. However, the balls for a 16 or 12 bore shot gun weigh a LOT more than those for a 50-54 rifle. I have a rifle that uses a 16 to the pound, one ounce, ball and its not a good idea to toss too many in the pouch. A 69 is worse. Now if a 54 caliber rifle will kill anything you are likely to hunt why pack around the extra lead? 5 pounds of lead will run quite awhile at 32 to the pound at 16 to the pound not so many. J.J. Henry tells us from 1775 when he was enroute to Quebec that he had 70 balls in his pouch and the rifle was apparently smaller then 48 caliber. 70 balls at 45 to the pound will weight about a pound and 1/2. Seventy 16 to the pound balls will weigh 4 3/8 pounds and will require about twice the powder. My rifle with a 1 ounce ball needs 140 grains off FF to make 1600 fps with a Knock breech and 30" barrel. Which gives it a decent trajectory to 110-120 yards. Now will it kill better than a 45 or 32 to the pound rifle? Yeah. But in shooting deer its not twice as good. I would prefer it for Elk over a 50-54. But both these kill elk well with proper shot placement so why carry the extra lead and powder if you are maybe 1000 miles from a resupply? 1840s at Ft Union is a far cry from 1830 at Jackson Hole or Three Forks of the Missouri or even out on the plains of Kansas or Nebraska.
Then we have the self-defense aspect. For details I suggest you look to Osborne Russell for his accounts of fights with the natives, including Pierre's Hole and look at the casualty rates. The Pierre's Hole fight was pretty close range thus supposedly negating the rifles advantage. It was still grossly one sided. Then we have Tecumseh trading in his trade gun for a rifle before Fallen Timbers. Apparently he though the rifle was a better idea. So far as nooks and crannies. Yep I use terrain a lot. But when you are sneaking on some deer and one gets up you did not see and she is 100 yards or just a little more. I'm stuck, in full view. Since I'm hunting a doe anyway I do a 100 yard offhand shot. Trust me I have tried this with a smooth bore too. But the results were not the same. I hit her a little higher than I was holding but when went down in her tracks. I have killed deer and antelope from 30 yards or so to 150 over the years. And since I don't know how far the shot might be I gave up on the Trade gun about 40 years ago and for several reasons. It was great at breaking rocks out to a pretty fair distance and shot good on paper. But after all the work it takes to get a shot, like crawling across a stubble field. Knowing the gun and still missing, shooting from prone rock solid? Nope... Have not shot at a critter with a smooth bore since. At the distances many shoot deer in the East from stands I can kill deer with a rifled pistol and have in the past. View attachment 22526
While is earlier than the Mtn Man era these paragraphs make some of my points, including that the rifle is more efficient. Its from "Bailey".View attachment 22525
That is one beautiful smoke pole you've got there! The chevron on the guard is a nice touch
 
We find lots of paloindian sites with pronghorn and white tail bones about the site. And smaller meat proteins in preserved Palondian poop. Bows don’t seem to have been invented in the Americas until about six thousand years ago, and don’t seem popular in North America until three thousand years ago so from the end of the megafauna until the invention of the bow, around three thousand years or more deer pronghorn and bigger game were being killed with hand thrown or atlatl spears.
The US government actively tried to sell rifles to Indians from 1788- 1821 when they got out of the fur trade business, with limited success.
By 1640 the French were trading with the Mandan and Arricara villages on the Missouri and regularly working the east plains until the end of the F&I war. This country is pretty well wooded today, it was step land back then. Yet the French never made wide spread use of a rifle.
A .54 shoots a half ounce ball smooth or rifled.
At a hundred and forty grains you get fifty shots to the pound. A .54 loaded for bear a hundred shots takes two pounds of powder and three pounds of lead, five pounds total. Two more pounds in a .62, if you shoot that same big load of powder, probably more like seventy shots to the pound that shaves half a pound from your weight. A .54 smoothie saves you half a pound of powder... if you load 140 grains.
And shot was getting traded west. You get one bunny for an ounce of lead, one deer for half an ounce. Yet they were buying shot and killing bunnies... they don’t seemed as concerned weight as we might today.
 
We find lots of paloindian sites with pronghorn and white tail bones about the site. And smaller meat proteins in preserved Palondian poop. Bows don’t seem to have been invented in the Americas until about six thousand years ago, and don’t seem popular in North America until three thousand years ago so from the end of the megafauna until the invention of the bow, around three thousand years or more deer pronghorn and bigger game were being killed with hand thrown or atlatl spears.
The US government actively tried to sell rifles to Indians from 1788- 1821 when they got out of the fur trade business, with limited success.
By 1640 the French were trading with the Mandan and Arricara villages on the Missouri and regularly working the east plains until the end of the F&I war. This country is pretty well wooded today, it was step land back then. Yet the French never made wide spread use of a rifle.
A .54 shoots a half ounce ball smooth or rifled.
At a hundred and forty grains you get fifty shots to the pound. A .54 loaded for bear a hundred shots takes two pounds of powder and three pounds of lead, five pounds total. Two more pounds in a .62, if you shoot that same big load of powder, probably more like seventy shots to the pound that shaves half a pound from your weight. A .54 smoothie saves you half a pound of powder... if you load 140 grains.
And shot was getting traded west. You get one bunny for an ounce of lead, one deer for half an ounce. Yet they were buying shot and killing bunnies... they don’t seemed as concerned weight as we might today.
I am learning so much. Much of this I have thought of before but without any reference. Just intuition on my part. Thank you
LC
 
I can say that 75% of all the game I've killed in the last 45 years was killed in smooth bore range and the other 25% just outside that range. Ive never felt handicapped with a long bow. I doubt I will with a smooth bore.
 
RE what it takes to clobber a bunny and such.

We must not think that a (for argument's sake) a 20 -gauge Must use a full charge of shot. For rabbits and such, a very light charge of shot would do if sitting shots taken.
We can't presume a full charge was used at all times....Not like a cartridge gun where the loads come tailored already.
 
Even with my 16 ga model 12s I have dove/quail loads and pheasant loads. My target load for my 54 cal. Santa Fe Hawken is 70 grains. For hunting it’s 110 grains. You are correct in lighter loads vs heavy loads. Excellent point
 
I've been shot down for this before. But, what makes anyone think they really had a choice. These guys were poor and (here is where I get in trouble) poor folks made do with whatever they can afford. It is not far fetched to surmise left over Rev. war muskets, modified or as issue, were in the hands of the guys who left home back east to head for the mountains.

That has been my opinion as well.
( So you must be right, of course!)
Many men out west would have used rifles some years and smoothbores other times, depending on finances and the occaisional mishap that may have caused the gun carried to be damaged, stolen, or lost in the river, etc.
 
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