Smoothbore "Chokes"

[Vic Price]

As I study the different smoothbore styles I reckon I have a question related to hunting with one using both shot and round ball. What was typical for the original barrels for shot patterns ( open/semi-restricted/restricted )? It appears to me that one sets up a smoothbore for using shot and you get what you get for roundball accuracy....and adjust accordingly when shooting roundballs. I apologize if this is a common discussion, but I cannot read all threads on the forums. I noticed TOTW offer a turkey choked smoothbore barrel.

Regards, Vic

Regards

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Choke is a modern option, post Civil War. Perhaps a very few muzzleloaders at the tail end of the muzzleloading era may have been choked, possible but doubtful, but it is reasonable to say that all original fowlers were cylinder bore. While the British sportsman enjoyed the sport of "shooting flying" his poor American cousin probably had to weigh gain against expense. I suspect the impoverished frontiersman would have great qualms about launching a load of shot at a silly little flying bird when that same weight of powder and lead in the form of a ball could take down a deer, moose or buffalo. Powder and lead were precious "store bought" commodities and small game can easily be trapped, snared, netter of taken on the roost at night. Relatively few Americans could afford to be "sportsmen", they were more likely meat hunters and if they fired a load of small shot it was likely flock shooting on the water or ground in hopes of bagging numbers of birds with each round fired. Nor could they afford the time and ammo to "work up loads" so you probably get better results from your cylinder bore fowler today than did your great, great grandfather who probably made do with the fixed the powder measure provided by the gun maker and never "wasted a shot" to test patterns.

 

[Vic Price]

Interesting. This makes sense. So - most smooth barrels used today are cylinder bore.

If one was to build a smoothbore more specifically for bird hunting, turkey hunting, etc., you would probably try and use a barrel more suited to this (if available) end result - right ?

 

[Maestro]

I've dedicated one of my smoothbore fowlers (.75) to be a turkey/goose gun. I know he wouldn't want to proselytize his own work, but I had Coyote Joe "jug choke" my barrel full for my intended purpose and couldn't be happier with the patterns I get at 40 yards. :thumbsup:

Search through the old posts for "jug choke" for more info. :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Pedersoli makes shotguns with screw in chokes, just like modern shotguns using shotgun shells. Other shotguns still come cylinder bore. Some folks have these choked, either " jug choked" or have the muzzles threaded for screw in chokes, for whatever kind of game they are hunting. I don't think there is ONE universal rule about replica BP shotguns today. Oh, you will still find older Pedersoli shotguns with fixed choked barrels in them, too.

You see a lot of variety in Fowlers that are being built by custom builders, or by their owners today. A fowler can be either an flintlock or percussion, altho historically they were made in flintlock actions and that is still the most common action used on the new ones. These are single barrel guns, characterized mostly( there are always exceptions) by a barrel that is Octagon to Round in profile, giving a light weight shot gun that swings easily. Having said that, you can also find long barreled fowlers, both in full octagon, with a full length stock, and half stock half octagon, half round profiles. The barrels may be up to 5 feet in length. Any of these barrels can be "choked" for the owner.

Most owners of jug choked barrels report that they still get good accuracy shooting RB from these barrels. Any smoothbore gun shooting RB is basically a 50-70 yard, Max. firearm, when it comes to hunting deer. You might get Lucky and hit a deer beyond these limits, but most hunters shoot deer inside these ranges regardless of the firearm they use. Today, the most common gauge for a fowler will be 20 gauge; however, 14, 16, and 12 gauge fowlers are also out there. You will see an occasional single barrel 10 gauge, and I know of one 8 gauge single barrel percussion shotgun. The 8 gauge is not legal to use to hunt deer in most states, nor is it legal to take migratory waterfowl, and most upland game. I does a heck of a job on pigeons, English Sparrows, and Black Birds, however. :shocked2: :hmm: :idunno: :thumbsup:

 

[ohio ramrod]

Back in the middle sixties I made a smoothbore/shotgun barrel that had a "screw on" choke. It screwed on with the male threads on the barrel/ female threads on the choke. It was easily removed for loading but made the gun barrel heavy. I think I still have the barrel around some where. Maybe one of these days I'll remount it and see how it shoots compared to my jug choked gun.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You were probably shooting a " Cutts Comp", an adjustable choke device that was threaded to the outside of the barrel. They got a new breath of life when Sporting Clays courses became popular about 20 years ago, as they give you the instant choice to change the amount of choke you have on a barrel based on the kind of targets, and range of the targets at each station in the field courses. When I was a deer checker in the late 60s, I saw lots of Cutts Comps on shotguns used by successful deer hunters. You still see them on guns in the used gun racks, and at some guns shows. They are a blessing to the working guy who simply cannot spend the money to buy an expensive shotgun with multiple choke tubes. I believe they may still be available.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Actually I was shooting a barrel and choke that I had made. I was working at the time at a small machine shop that did a lot of aircraft and areospace work so I had access to some high quality seamless tubing certified for high psi. (with in what was standard ) And access to the machinery to machine it. The owner was real nice about ordering me a 20 foot piece of tubing to my specifications. When I keept asking how much it was he kept saying he would look it up some time and I never did end up paying for it. Clarence was really good about hiring college students and allowed us flexible schedules to fit our class schedules. Unfortunally most of my barrel blanks that I made were lost in a car theft, I had them in the trunk as I was in college at the time and had no other place to store them.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I was mistaken in describing the choke I was talking about as a "Cutts Compensator- made by Lyman. I was actually thinking of the " Poly-Choke", still available from the company in Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin.
http://www.poly-choke.com/

The Cutts Comp was an early version of screw-in choke tubes. The "Poly-choke" has an add-on, turn-adjusting system to change the amount of " choke", so that you can adjust the choke faster than taking out tubes, and screwing new ones in.

Altho I have seen screw in chokes used in ML shotguns, I have not yet seen a Polychoke used on one. I am sure its been done-- I just haven't seen one.

 

[Dphar]

Interesting. This makes sense. So - most smooth barrels used today are cylinder bore.

If one was to build a smoothbore more specifically for bird hunting, turkey hunting, etc., you would probably try and use a barrel more suited to this (if available) end result - right ?

Depends on if you want to hunt HC or not. If you are trying the hunt as people did in the 18th and early 19th century then the choke defeats the purpose. As does the use of modern wads since most of not all shotguns were apparently wadded with tow back in the day.

But most use modern shotgun wads since they perform much better.
It is possible to experiment with a paper (or modern plastic) shot cups that will make a smoothbore shoot tighter without a choke. This was done is various forms by the British at least. One work around was a wire mesh contraption that allowed shot to escape though the mesh. It is pictured in W.W. Greeners "The Gun and Its development". But its relatively "new" I think.
I have made them from 2 wraps of 20 pound paper made much like a paper cartridge for a musket but no powder. Glue the bottom shut, put the shot in and glue the top. Put the powder down, wad as desired, then the paper cup with the top torn off then an OS wad. This should improve patterns. Experiment with cuts in the sides to slow the cup faster, or not.
As a result of modern wads that protect the shot and hold it together better modern shotguns are generally not choked as tight as the guns made before the advent of the various plastic shot cups.

Hunting with a ML shotgun that patterns as well as a modern shotgun is somewhat like hunting with an inline, using modern technology to improve performance to modern levels.

Dan

 

[Vic Price]

To be honest..........I'm mainly looking to understand the construction & use of smoothbores as they were constructed and used "back when".......P/C I reckon. I understand a 20 ga barrel would accomodate a .62 cal RB and a 24 ga barrel - maybe a .58 cal RB ? I've always been more attracted to the rifles, but have a growing interest in the smoothbores, and don't ask why - I seem to like the Tulle the most so far. If I ever get to a smoothbore, I would prefer to set it up as an original and become proficient with it - as it is. I'll have to say that a flint rifle will come first. I've been shooting a caplock plains rifle for 25 years.

Regarding the "poly choke" device.........very common years ago, particularly with duck hunters, at least in my area on the Upper Mississippi River.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You will find a Gauge to Caliber conversion chart under" Member Resources", on the Index page to this forum, under " Charts". That should give you an accurate knowledge about the bore diameter of the various gauge sizes you may encounter.

Then, go to Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook for articles on Traditional Shotguns. There is a very good one written by Spenser himself, and another very good article written by the late V.M. Starr.
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/

The original shotguns were Cylinder Bore, ie. no Choke. Jug choking came into being before muzzle choking, or back boring. The Short range of these early guns required different shooting styles, and hunting skills. Birds were shot " on the water", where you could efficiently kill several birds with each fired load of shot. Wing Shooting only became the "sport" of royalty, who could afford the powder and shot to practice, and used their skills to show off, much as fine archers shot birds out of the air with their arrows hundreds of years before. In the American Colonies, the populations were mainly the poor, and hunting was to supplement the diet of the families, assuming they had anything else. Few could afford to waste powder and shot shooting at birds flying in the air.

There is a reprint of the W.W. Greener Book available today, written back in the 1860s, I believe, that you might want to read to get more information on early shotguns.

I don't think there is any consensus on when Exactly someone first jug choked a barrel, nor when the first muzzle choked barrels were introduced.

This kind of thing was being explored all over Europe in the mid-19th Century, as well as here in the USA. Its quite possible that some of the early development goes back to the 18th century. There are early references to work in France, Italy, Spain and Portugal on this matter.

It was only when Commercial Production of choked barrels became possible, as the result of the industrial revolution, in the mid-19th Century, that anyone attempted to systematize the amount of choke required to achieve certain levels of patterns, and put names to the chokes.

 

[Dave K]

Spend a little time on patterning a cyl. bored fowler or shotgun. I am sure with the right combination, you will be very pleasantly surprised. I may not have a 40yd. cyl. bore gun as I never tested that far, but if it is in my range that I practiced and tested to, which is 30yds. That turkey is toast.

 

[longbow-hunter]

I have a smoothbore being built and it will be jugchoked to a full choke for turkey. :surrender:

 

[dbutch]

TV..I understand your goal-this will limit you to lead shot and 1 or 2 non-toxic shot....Which works!

DP.Mentioned the fact of using modern wad cups-plastic etc..more like inline technology-use
I as a hunter do not have a choice--Waterfowl require Non-toxic shot...it's harder than lead and will score your barrel when shot with out a protective wad-cup..I found hevi-shot to perform the best for waterfowl so I use the cups...I feel caught in the middle here on this point..I will not shoot lead and hunt in fear of the fines..so either you use the wad-cups or you stay home and pout!--good news is I have found when using the stiffer shot cups I did not need a choke..so a true smooth bore has many uses.
I admire the traditional ways-some times by law it's not always possible. Would love to load and use lead for waterfowl but those days ended in the early 80's.
Your going to love a smooth bore.. choked or not!

 

[roundball]

I feel caught in the middle here on this point..I will not shoot lead and hunt in fear of the fines..so either you use the wad-cups or you stay home

Actually, EcoTungsten(Niceshot) is fantastic, a direct lead substitute, and requires no shot cup.

It is expensive but not all that much MORE expensive than those that require shot cups. And...my opinion only...duck hunting is a very expensive form of hunting in general, and based on how few shots are normally taken (compared to dove hunting), and compared to the cost of modern shotgun shells for duck hunting, IMO its less of an issue than I first thought.

Plus, a major cost reduction benefit for us in muzzleloading is that because its a direct lead substitute ballistic ally, you can do all your pattern testing with the same size hard magnum lead shot, then just shoot a couple of "pattern verification" test shots with the more expensive EcoTungsten and go hunting.

I tested #4s and #6s out of my 'Full Jug Choked' .62cal and they were excellent, with the #6s actually throwing a noticeably more dense pattern on a 40 yard turkey head target than my Lawrence brand magnum #6 lead shot did.

(the bag limit on Canada geese has gotten extremely generous and I had an opportunity to sit in the edge of some woods near a pond where geese would congregate...thought about trying to take some like I suspect some settlers did, with head shots on the ground just like turkey hunting...had to have non-toxics to do that of course)

 

[dbutch]

I feel caught in the middle here on this point..I will not shoot lead and hunt in fear of the fines..so either you use the wad-cups or you stay home

Actually, EcoTungsten(Niceshot) is fantastic, a direct lead substitute, and requires no shot cup.

It is expensive but not all that much MORE expensive than those that require shot cups. And...my opinion only...duck hunting is a very expensive form of hunting in general, and based on how few shots are normally taken (compared to dove hunting), and compared to the cost of modern shotgun shells for duck hunting, IMO its less of an issue than I first thought.

And one major cost reduction benefit for us in muzzleloading is that because its a direct lead subsitiute ballistically, you can do all your pattern testing with the same size hard magnum lead shot, then just shoot a couple of "pattern verification" test shots with the more expensive EcoTungsten.

I tested #4s and #6s out of my 'Full Jug Choked' .62cal and they were excellent, with the #6s actually throwing a noticably more dense pattern on a 40 yard turkey head target than my Lawerence brand magnum #6 lead shot did.

Round ball -my coments are based on in field hunting -not paper targets...the Hevi-shot worked best for me...the best penetration on game--this is my goal-a clean fast kill!..to get this I use hevi-shot...chasing cripples with a flint is a PITA!..Have tried Nice-shot it's just ok for Waterfowl.....my opinion only! Would not have a problem using it for upland game and turkeys.

Looking forward to a field report when you harvest game with Nice shot! Very interested in penetration results.

my preferance for penetration in order
1 hevi-shot
2 steel
3 Nice shot

 

[roundball]

I understand, although I would have thought that with its weight and ballistics matching the corresponding size lead shot there should be no difference in penetration...interesting.

What I did not do is run penetration tests using heavy tuna cans like I did with magnum lead shot...when my .62cal Virgina gets here and I have it at the range this summer, I'll run a couple of penetration tests on the EcoTungsten too

 

[Vic Price]

TV..I understand your goal-this will limit you to lead shot and 1 or 2 non-toxic shot....Which works!

DP.Mentioned the fact of using modern wad cups-plastic etc..more like inline technology-use
I as a hunter do not have a choice--Waterfowl require Non-toxic shot...it's harder than lead and will score your barrel when shot with out a protective wad-cup..I found hevi-shot to perform the best for waterfowl so I use the cups...I feel caught in the middle here on this point..I will not shoot lead and hunt in fear of the fines..so either you use the wad-cups or you stay home and pout!--good news is I have found when using the stiffer shot cups I did not need a choke..so a true smooth bore has many uses.
I admire the traditional ways-some times by law it's not always possible. Would love to load and use lead for waterfowl but those days ended in the early 80's.
Your going to love a smooth bore.. choked or not!

Hunting seasons and related requirements or laws have transpired ( and for good reasons.....most of them anyway! ) since the frontier days, so I wouldn't hesitate to use wad cups, etc., to accomodate a pc muzzleloader - for hunting conditions, particularly if it means not violating. Use the modern technology to meet the current requirements and enjoy your muzzleloading experience just as much !

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Actually, EcoTungsten(Niceshot) is fantastic, a direct lead substitute, and requires no shot cup.

As is Bismuth/Tin alloy shot, which is back in production, and probably of better quality than the original.

Regards,
Joel
still using the remains of my original BiSn stash.