Smoothbore rate of twist?

[nit wit]

Now my head hurts!
Nit Wit

 

[Britsmoothy]

That's amazing shooting with a smooth bore I would never have believed it....super photo thanks for the effort, realy appreciated .....and the legal tip , difficult to fine right legal balance of conversation, I have too much enthusiasm for your forum, brilliant conversations, at 78 I could not get my shotgun S2 cert renewed, let alone for a muzzleloader ,it's all down to theory and dreams now in the uk propped up with a 12 ft lb pop air gun, there's little hunting in the uk anyway , I have my own 50 yard garden range I used to belong to the muzzle loaders at Bisely years ago I just collect and repair wall hangers and fight the cancer within me.....there have been great times.......the locals in Nigeria made their own muzzle loaders perhaps they knew more than me.....its been a great life........super forum and chat many thanks

Sorry for your cancer.

There is no age limit on holding a shotgun certificate. Have you had a spot of bother?

I was under the mistaken belief that solid ammunition in cartridge form was the only restriction under law for shooting a solid from a shotgun thus as a muzzleloader does not use ammunition as defined in the law I thus thought it was exempt. That coupled with a provision for deer to be shot via a shotgun and solid ammunition with the required necessary licencing (section 2 for shotgun and section 1 for the solid ammunition it is easy to believe a smoothbored muzzle loader is exempt from restrictions around the use of solid ammunition.
However, the description of a shotgun for the purposes of a shotgun licence/certificate or section 2 licence ( all the same thing) does make it clear that it should not be able to a; propell anything bigger than .36" shot and b; no less than five pellets.

It worked out well for me actually.
Where as my .45 shot ball akin to a rifle over 50yds I now roll five .36" down the barrel and heck, it's even more lethal! Winner winner.
Cheers British law makers

 

[Gordoncourtney]

This is England
Oh there were a couple over the years, but I was the innocent party, But still got interviewed by plod, that's points against me.... if you are just and upright in society, nothing bad can be said about you......in a family Will ,2010 ,court case representing my wife, a witness said I went to a funeral armed with and axe and burnt her house down......I committed an offence by writing to her, plod said I should have used a solicitor....judge said just a stupid woman and 2011 our house was robbed , seemed I said " I'll shoot them next time" Plod did not like it....they write everything down on record...there was talk to the police , of civil disturbance at our sailing club, Masons getting together, ha ha we are all over 70, I'll say no more , by a disgruntled member, I like others was totally inocent of anything but still got interviewed by police .they just suddenly confiscated my shotguns........such is life but it's a green and pleasant land.......a number of other people have lost their guns too.....I can hunt and shoot in France though I can outshoot a shotgun with my pcp air guns knock heads off rabbits at 50 yards..........I have been treated very badly by the police it hurts..!!!!! Yes a police state we are becoming
.....stand up for your rights. For me I shoot a compound bow, but I found no hogs in France last motorhome trip..and life goes on and on.......one day nobody will have guns in uk.....that's my predicted future.....
I have a double 1886 . 36 nice Percussion double rifle, I could load 5 balls, but I don't want to ream out the riffling and make it a double smooth bore, . I got it for hog shooting in France....that's legal there in France, But I need an elusive licence to carry it in my motorhome, Seems you cannot carry a firearm in France without a reason, hoping to shoot hogs is not a reason......you. Can carry it to a hunt , a club or to your house that is reason, Funny laws quite complex , but better than Uk.....alas Brexit has ruined much like living thete

It's very unclear but as a Lancaster oval bore rifle has no rifling it's classified as a shotgun S2. Not a rifle S1 Of course it becomes a rifle if a cartridge bullet it loaded, but not if shot is used .......fortunately a Lancaster is obsolete so S58. Friends who shoot a Lancaster obviously have it on S1 for as a rifle. The police have the experts , the law and the money behind them, so it is probably foolish to shoot an oval bore without an S1 certificate, But being obsolete you can happily hang it on the wall...

I thought this was a forum from across the pond, but all comments most welcome, lovely forum lovely people. Gordon

 

[smo]

WWW
World Wide Web

 

[Tumbledown]

It is not spin. It is simply tumbling from turbulence induced by gasses escaping ahead of the ball, wind, and variations in ball density/ weight distribution (even a tiny nub of sprue throws the center of mass off a tiny bit.)

 

[Gordoncourtney]

To solve the erratic densities etc of a lead round ball, How would a patched ex steel ball bearing fly as its a perfect sphere, lighter I agree but in a large bore smooth bore some benefits.....has anybody tested such a theory.

 

[Billy Boy]

The .672 balls on the right were recovered from soft wood, left one is unfired. The fired examples were loaded sprue cut-off up (forward) using both ends of the short starter for a nice square start, but show the sprue cut-off facing almost rearward at impact only fifty feet away. Target load, 60 gr. Fg and lubed .010 patch in .691 bore. I had assumed that there was inevitably a spin imparted to the ball in a smoothbore but here it is "tumbling" rather than the spin I expected. Have others noticed this?
View attachment 85430

After dropping below a certain velocity, a knuckle ball begins to dance, so does a round lead ball fired from a smoothbore. My experience is it happens sooner with lighter loads in my 62.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I meant to add ,perhaps it's the gyroscopic nature of a spinning bullet, that keeps it on course to its destination...I have thought about this since the 1960s we found round tight fitting balls in a shotgun shot so much better than any slugs we designed , but that was a long time ago in the dark ages.....the South Africans had it right and solved the problem with a cape rifle.......mine weighs a hefty 12 lbs.......I guess in later years I have fallen in love with the flintlock long rifles so gracefull and efficient.......I used to belong to the Surrey uk muzzle loaders , my bro Andy was secretary president or something, they lost their Bisely hut around 2013 and seem to be disjointed or I probably would have rejoined.....I think I'll stick to try hunting in France. Ha ha ha

Sorry to keep replying but I find your forum one of the most interesting forums I have read, and I cannot resist responding. Many thanks guys.

 

[Brokennock]

I meant to add ,perhaps it's the gyroscopic nature of a spinning bullet, that keeps it on course to its destination...I have thought about this since the 1960s we found round tight fitting balls in a shotgun shot so much better than any slugs we designed , but that was a long time ago in the dark ages.....the South Africans had it right and solved the problem with a cape rifle.......mine weighs a hefty 12 lbs.......I guess in later years I have fallen in love with the flintlock long rifles so gracefull and efficient.......I used to belong to the Surrey uk muzzle loaders , my bro Andy was secretary president or something, they lost their Bisely hut around 2013 and seem to be disjointed or I probably would have rejoined.....I think I'll stick to try hunting in France. Ha ha ha

Sorry to keep replying but I find your forum one of the most interesting forums I have read, and I cannot resist responding. Many thanks guys.

Please don't be sorry to keep replying, I have greatly enjoyed your last 3 replies. I often wonder how you all deal with the restrictions there, especially as I see so much effort being made to destroy our own Second Amendment.
Africa is a dream of mine. But, probably will never happen. So, I love to read of other's experiences there.

Very sorry to read of your cancer. God bless...

 

[BuffaloSoldier]

The .672 balls on the right were recovered from soft wood, left one is unfired. The fired examples were loaded sprue cut-off up (forward) using both ends of the short starter for a nice square start, but show the sprue cut-off facing almost rearward at impact only fifty feet away. Target load, 60 gr. Fg and lubed .010 patch in .691 bore. I had assumed that there was inevitably a spin imparted to the ball in a smoothbore but here it is "tumbling" rather than the spin I expected. Have others noticed this?
View attachment 85430

A "smoothbore" has no "rate of twist" or rifling, that's why they are called "smoothbores".

 

[Britsmoothy]

A "smoothbore" has no "rate of twist" or rifling, that's why they are called "smoothbores".

I do believe there was once straight rifling, but don't ask for a reference!

 

[SDSmlf]

I do believe there was once straight rifling, but don't ask for a reference!

Don’t know about straight rifling in traditional guns, but it is used in some ‘less than traditional’ shotgun barrels. A straight-rifled barrel pattern-tested. (Winston)

 

[Gordoncourtney]

You bring tears to my eyes thank you. Nigeria was the backside of the world 1978-1981 But when you get 30 miles from Lagos it was wonderful Africa. No animals there unless you go say 400 miles up north the sea massive breakers unswimable .....the black people the most kind and lovely people you could meet, they had a hard life, robbers at night though, we shot them on bar beech Sunday mornings , see utube, I belonged to the Germam hunters club but only shot clay pigeons, I hunted for a while with mad Italians , great friends, but too many slugs whizzed past my head, several had been accidentally shot Locals made muzzle loader barrels from lorry steering column tube. I built a pharmaceutical company for Prince Albert Awofisayo, I left when the pay checks started bouncing, driving over dead bodies was the norm. I had a big Merc but the locals loved me more if I drove a VW beetle...my kids were 4&6. .that's , well I guess it is Africa, got a tremendous soft spot for real black Africans. One guy shot a Cape buffalo but it got up , oh it's not dead it seems, tossed him and broke both legs, lucky guy ha ha ha yes it was a dead buff!!!!!!????? I can go on for hours


Yes straight rifling comes up occasionally at Holts Auction, strange idea , guess groves are to hold BP residue.

 

[PathfinderNC]

.....the black people the most kind and lovely people you could meet, they had a hard life, robbers at night though, we shot them on bar beech Sunday mornings

 

[PathfinderNC]

Wait- you shot the black people on bar beach Sunday mornings?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Wait- you shot the black people on bar beach Sunday mornings?

They didn't have " black lives matter" back then ☹

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Haha it's so normal , it's Africa, of course the first 3 months we were terrified of the place ......kind black lives did matter, everyone mattered, they were human beings just like me, you cannot comprehend what a hard life they had...... News TV " if a man is all good then nothing bad can be said about him, if he is bad then he should die" See executions bar beach Lagos Nigeria 1972, they did not mind being shot as they were going to meet Jesus , so thus I don't think executions were a deterant,,,,, don't mention the cutting off of hands either, They were robbers also ......it takes a lot of getting used to.......and please don't call us coloured it means we are of mixed tribe...black is fine, such lovely simple people, but they were great engineer craftsmen loved them to bits, missed them terribly when I came home ..... Such is Africa and its people.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Haha it's so normal , it's Africa, of course the first 3 months we were terrified of the place ......kind black lives did matter, everyone mattered, they were human beings just like me, you cannot comprehend what a hard life they had...... News TV " if a man is all good then nothing bad can be said about him, if he is bad then he should die" See executions bar beach Lagos Nigeria 1972, they did not mind being shot as they were going to meet Jesus , so thus I don't think executions were a deterant,,,,, don't mention the cutting off of hands either, They were robbers also ......it takes a lot of getting used to.......and please don't call us coloured it means we are of mixed tribe...black is fine, such lovely simple people, but they were great engineer craftsmen loved them to bits, missed them terribly when I came home ..... Such is Africa and its people.

Oh dear god….

 

[Outwater]

Geez, I thought this was common knowledge: Smoothbores have no "rate of twist", which is something imparted by rifling. Does that mean the ball is not rotating? or Spinning? or turn? NO. The ball MIGHT and depending on how it is loaded. For instance, in a loose, military load in a Brown Bess, (done so it can be loaded as quickly as possible- accuracy is not vital) they used a 69 cal ball in a 75 cal bore. The ball was wrapped in a paper cartridge also holding the powder. The cartridge was ripped open, the powder poured down the barrel, then the cartridge, ball and all, was rammed down.
When fired, the ball rattles down the bore, pure chance dictating which point of the barrel contacts it last- called in firearms or cannon, "Balloting down the bore" meaning it elects how it leaves on its own, without our intervention. As it leaves, gases escape around the ball unevenly, forcing some spin/rotation. Different spin/rotation each time. You are not imparting spin on the ball, it is electing how to spin all by itself, irregardless of your wants.
When you throw a baseball, if you want to accurately pitch, you have to DELIBERATELY impart spin, and you can vary that spin by degree and angle, so as to have a curveball, a slider, etc, or NO SPIN for a knuckleball. No spin is affected by the air differently each time, so the ball wobbles up and down, side to side...
So a smoothbore with a LOOSE load WILL have a ball that spins. You have no control over that spin. You might get a left or right curveball, a slider, a rising ball, or even a knuckleball. So a Bess was inaccurate at over 75 yards. (they fought at over 100 to 150 yards or more)
You can/may get better, more consistent accuracy by using a wrapped/patched ball that tightly fits the bore. A .725 ball with a .20 patch in a .75 bore for instance. Experimentation is required, as always for each firearm.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I give imparted spin a thumbs down. Perhaps some bore or ball irregularity imparts one turn in 50 . . . feet on the bore axis. More like spiral. Almost certainly "English" from air passing over the ball which rotates past the muzzle causing lift or drag from bore irregularities, loose ball fit or turbulence, etc.. In extensive smooth bore shooting of round balls I noted that after 60 yards I get a decidedly random "knuckleball" effect. Could have been due to lack of sights and crappy vision - but definately a "wall" unlike a sighted rifle and spinning round ball.