Smoothbores shooting round ball really high

[rich pierce]

Where does it shoot on 100gn?

At 25 yards it strikes right where the 70 grain load does, within constraints of my smoothbores shooting. But groups are tighter.

 

[IanH]

If it were mine I'd first drop a centered light and read the rings to make sure it's dead straight, and if it is, cob a taller front sight on there like the original idea. The problem with smoothbores and bending barrels is that if you want to shoot bare balls, they hook off in the direction of the bend. You might get it "on" at 25 yards and then find it is 6" left at 50 and six FEET left at 100. I don't know if the ball gets a backspin on it or what but it can "slice three fairways over" sometimes. Even a patched ball exhibits the same behavior, just not as severe. An "up" hook makes the ball drop prematurely. I don't know what the extended trajectory of a ball fired from a drooping barrel is, haven't had one of those yet.

 

[rich pierce]

Good advice all. I’m trying to avoid a permanent taller sight and use the height extension only for short range on woods walks. I’ve got the height extender made. Perhaps I’ll learn I don’t need much more height. If so I’ll make a taller front sight.

 

[Nav]

I don’t know squat. I buy at least Two barrels per season, and I prefer an MTU or a straight taper. I shoot out of axels weighing 10-12 lbs. I get about 1,800 shots out of a 6X47 Lapua barrel before I set them back or they’re roached. I expect .0005 percision on the cuts, or I’d send it back and they’d make it right. If I have a rifle that won’t hold under a minute at any range I can’t compete, and I’m only a middlin’ PRS marksman. The advertised tolerances are all checked when I receive a barrel, and I’ve sent more than one back for being out of spec. The idea of bending one is completely alien to me. I don’t know what I don’t know, which is why I’m here learning from those who do.

The barrel I just blued (blacked) from Green Mountain seems perfectly straight. I hope it shoots straight and I don’t have to bend it. Y’all is crazy..

 

[Brokennock]

You might get it "on" at 25 yards and then find it is 6" left at 50 and six FEET left at 100

Really? Makes sense if bending the barrel left or right (happened to me with a rifle barrel in a used gun I didn't know was bent) but,,,,,, the o.p. is talking about bending the barrel down,,,,,, not left or right.

 

[IanH]

Really? Makes sense if bending the barrel left or right (happened to me with a rifle barrel in a used gun I didn't know was bent) but,,,,,, the o.p. is talking about bending the barrel down,,,,,, not left or right.

That was simply an example of hooking I have actual experience with--and fixed-- that you took out of context. The lengths some of you go to create strife and make pokes here is unbelievable.

 

[rich pierce]

It’s a forum. I expect some folks to disagree with what I post, and to learn at least as much from those who see things a different way compared to those who see things my way.

To be clear my smoothbore barrel has no rear sight. It is sighted by eye and its shooting high. This is expected because the breech is thick and the muzzle is thin. Every single barrel I’ve had that has significant taper needs a tall front sight. But it does not look right on a trade gun. This is why I propose to keep the sight I have for hunting with round ball. It’s pretty “on target” at 60 yards and I will be able to hold low if a deer comes close before offering a shot. But if I want to hit lollipops at 20 yards on a woods walk I need a taller front sight. Installing one permanently to be dead on at 20 yards would make it shoot low at 60 yards. It’s a .600 ball probably going 1300 fps.

Many good options have been offered. I’ll report on my wacky proposed solution as soon as I get to the range. Height extension is made, fits the front sight like a glove, and is ready to pin on.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Strange isn't it. Mine shoots low and I have to see some barrel.

 

[Britsmoothy]

At 25 yards it strikes right where the 70 grain load does, within constraints of my smoothbores shooting. But groups are tighter.

Off hand or benched?

 

[Brokennock]

That was simply an example of hooking I have actual experience with--and fixed-- that you took out of context. The lengths some of you go to create strife and make pokes here is unbelievable.

And if you actually paid attention to all of what I said, you would see that I agreed with you about hooking left to right. But, hey, your supposedly the expert, or at least that's how most of your posts read,,,,, the expert no one seems to know, maybe that's why you're looking for arguments (and "creating strife") where there are none.

 

[rich pierce]

Off hand or benched?

Benched

 

[French Colonial]

The idea that a ball from a smoothbore is going to "hook" or have a curvature in its path after leaving the muzzle is total balderdash.

The ball will follow a straight line as there are no forces acting on the ball after leaving the barrel (disregarding wind). And there is no spin of the ball from a smoothbore.

Now, the straight line of the path of the ball will diverge from the alignment of the sights if they are off and this will increase with yardage, but that is not "hooking".

And regards to bending a barrel on a smoothbore, been there, done that, and it works very well if you take your time using the above method (not smacking it on a tree) and it will sometimes take multiple trips to the bending apparatus to get it shooting exactly to POA but I have done this multiple times and it works.

 

[Brokennock]

The idea that a ball from a smoothbore is going to "hook" or have a curvature in its path after leaving the muzzle is total balderdash.

The ball will follow a straight line as there are no forces acting on the ball after leaving the barrel (disregarding wind). And there is no spin of the ball from a smoothbore.

You are correct it isn't "hooking."
But that does not negate the fact that if you bend a barrel left or right to hit point of aim at one distance, it will be off at every other distance. But that is windage, not elevation. Elevation will do the same but can be compensated for, we already do that due to the trajectory of a projectile anyway. But yes, that is not hooking.
And Rich's issue is elevation.

 

[Shiloh]

REAR SIGHT - Likely no rear sight on Rich’s smoothie …

BARREL PLANE - Sounds counter-intuitive but I shoot all my smoothies showing barrel, sometimes a lot. It does sound like your’s might be quite different, however.

I visualize a pencil lying across the breech and the base of the front sight sits on a pencil. In fact that is how I practice for competition, by taping a suitable diameter dowel across the breech for ‘cheeking’ practice and dry firing at home.

BENDING BARRELS - No worries there Rich, as one said, there will be some ‘spring back’, but I’ve bent many a barrel, octagonal barrels rifles too, using a jig setup like IanH showed, barrel on hardwood V-blocks to keep it a good 3-4” about the bench top.

Yes, you’ll need that height due to the spring back !

I bet I’ve bent 8 or more MZLs by now, 4 or 5 being mine, one a massively wide breech and yes, kept the bend forward of the transition … not that you can see it. Previously when gunsmithing, I bent many more, even modern rifles and single-shot Schuetzen barrel to get point of aim to keep the sights centered, maximizing sight adjustment capability … and greatly improving the looks of the completed rifle of course (nothing worse than rifles costing a few $1,000 with sights well off to one side, doh!). And another dirty secret … factory barrels may not be straight!

Personally I don’t get what the big deal is about bending barrels, it’s not rocket science, it’s sooooo much easier than that! I just don’t understand the mystique is about it really. Like I just had sent 2 barrels off to Bobby Hoyt to have one rifled and the other honed smooth. The 1st thing he did, before he did any work I wanted done, was check the barrels for straightness and had to straighten one of them. No big deal …

I know even commercial barrel makers have barrel straightening presses but I keep thinking about every time I’ve tried to bend tubing. I know it’s not the same but I can see me with a kinked barrel.

 

[French Colonial]

You are correct it isn't "hooking."
But that does not negate the fact that if you bend a barrel left or right to hit point of aim at one distance, it will be off at every other distance. But that is windage, not elevation. Elevation will do the same but can be compensated for, we already do that due to the trajectory of a projectile anyway. But yes, that is not hooking.
And Rich's issue is elevation.

Nope, The ball is following a straight path once it leaves the barrel.

If the ball is going straight along your sighting plane it is going straight. if it is on at 25 yards it will be on at 50, don't believe it? Draw it out on a piece of paper and see.

The only way it could do as you describe would be if it was diverging from the line of sight as soon as it left the muzzle and was starting from one side and going toward the other aligning with the sights at some point and then going to the other side.

But what do I know, I have only bent barrels and shot the guns multiple times with no such issues.

And Rich could fix his elevation issue by bending the barrel so it bent slightly upward (Bowed down a little in the middle). Been there done that.

 

[Brokennock]

I've been pondering this thing about seeing more barrel to shoot lower. I have some thoughts, and I freely admit they could be way off base. This could get long as I set out my logic, but please follow my line of reasoning,,,,, then poke holes in it .
First though, let me say I get the cringey heebee-jeebies when this barrel bending issue comes up, not over elevation, but over windage,,,, and windage is not the issue here.

So, seeing more barrel to shoot lower? Seems counterintuitive.
I think it is dependent on two things. 1. Projectile
And, 2. what I'll call target alignment method, because I don't want to use "aiming" as a broad term.
Shotgunners will tell you that picking your head up, and thus seeing more barrel, will cause you to shoot high. They are not aiming. Their target alignment method is target focused and "pointing" the gun.
So, if we follow shotgunner thinking, Rich needs to lower his head and see less barrel. Right?
How would a shotgun guy do this? Lower the comb.
Well, Rich stared he has a large breech and a tapered barrel.
Our target alignment method is not just pointing but deliberately aiming using the front sight, when shooting roundball. So?
If Rich has a large breech and he needs to see the front sight what happens if he lowers the comb to lower his head? He has to lift the muzzle to see that sight,,,, thus shooting higher.
But what if he lifts his head, maybe getting his "cheek weld" closer to the jaw than the cheek bone? He would see more barrel, and not have to lift the muzzle to do so.
Okay,,,,, poke away,

 

[French Colonial]

I know even commercial barrel makers have barrel straightening presses but I keep thinking about every time I’ve tried to bend tubing. I know it’s not the same but I can see me with a kinked barrel.

Bending the barrel is done by bracing the two ends of the barrel and putting pressure on the barrel over a two to three inch area in the middle, I have used a hydraulic press. I suppose if you tried to bend it by placing a sharp knife edge in the middle you could get a kink but I never have.

By bending it gently and releasing just a little you can feel it spring back keep doing it and you can feel the barrel actually give a little, now it will spring back but not all the way, I usually set this up so I can measure how much it does or does not return to the starting point, time to reassemble and go shoot and repeat until it hits point of aim.

 

[Brokennock]

Nope, The ball is following a straight path once it leaves the barrel.

If the ball is going straight along your sighting plane it is going straight. if it is on at 25 yards it will be on at 50, don't believe it? Draw it out on a piece of paper and see.

The only way it could do as you describe would be if it was diverging from the line of sight as soon as it left the muzzle and was starting from one side and going toward the other aligning with the sights at some point and then going to the other side.

But what do I know, I have only bent barrels and shot the guns multiple times with no such issues.

And Rich could fix his elevation issue by bending the barrel so it bent slightly upward (Bowed down a little in the middle). Been there done that.

Here ya go,

Middle example dramatized.
If you bend a barrel to point right,,,,,, the ball will keep going in that direction. You are saying two different things. You keep saying it travels straight and I agree, it keeps going straight,,,,,, in the direction the now bent barrel is pointed in at the muzzle! If it is bent so that the muzzle is pointed to the right of the breech to hit poi at 25 yards, or 50, or wherever,,,, nothing is going to bring it back to the left to hit poi at the next distance out.

 

[French Colonial]

Sorry, your lines are curved

Try this, in order for the bullet to do what you say the bullet would have to start off to one side of the sight alignment and progress to the other side which would mean that the sights would have to be misaligned on the barrel.

Again, the bullet and the sights are both straight lines.

Here are three examples 1. aligned 2. barrel needs bent 3. sights out of alignment with the bullet path.

 

[Timber Wolf]

Have to admit I have not read all the posts. But this seems like a nice simple “6 o’clock” hold situation for the Woods Walks. What am I missing?