+1 My own personal experience is the same ,now with age and strength it is very hard for me to hold and shoot well with my flintlock rifle ,so I now shoot my chiefs gun and bess in almost all situations for matches (off hand),my scores are starting to improve compared to those of the last 2 years . :thumbsup:
Smothbores ARE Accurate
- Thread starter hanshi
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I have a 38" barrel, jug choked 12ga fowler that may shoot a 2 foot group at 25yds with any possible load imaginable. It may shoot through the same hole once and scatter the next 3 balls a foot or more away with the same load. The gun has a rear sight.
That said, it will shoot a load of shot #4 in a pie plate at 25 yards every time.
That said, it will shoot a load of shot #4 in a pie plate at 25 yards every time.
Now thats a turkey gun! :thumbsup:
I should have said mostly In a pie plate, the bulk will be in a pie plate but about 15% of the shot will surround the pie plate.
Still a great turkey gun!!
A lot of recovered fowler, fusils and muskets turner in to civilian guns did have rear sights. Some were just chisel lifted flakes. Just like long shots were done in the old days with rifles and archery beyond what we might do today I think many of us would limit our range. Many Archers shoot out to 25 yards and I like many rifleman would not shoot beyond 100 yards I do limit my smooth bores to 50, and I have never shot a deer at that long range.Britsmoothy said:
54ball
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Early Dutch Trade Guns of the Hudson Valley region are commonly found with butterfly rear sights. This same style of sight is sometimes found on French Trade guns and is very common on Early English Trade Guns especially the Carolina Type.
This butterfly brass sight is often found very close to breech usually at the forward lock nail location.
This butterfly brass sight is often found very close to breech usually at the forward lock nail location.
Brokennock
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Any record of this butterfly rear sight being added to a fusil de chase? Also, is anyone offering a reproduction of one?
54ball
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I primarily study the English guns. There is some debate amongst scholars if the guns were made in England with rear sights or if they were added by the traders here in North America.
Hamilton's book has a French Gun with a rear sight.
Jack Brooks has castings of an original French type D rear sight.
Clay Smith and the Rifle Shoppe have castings of the English Type G.
All are similar to the early Dutch butterfly style sight. Since these sights seem to be close to the same design and they tend to be mounted close to the breech regardless of country of origin, that might be clue that the sights were added here in North America.
Some Continental pieces have very decorative rear sights. These can be anywhere on the barrel up to the wedding bands and tend to be longer, more streamlined and of a more ornate complicated design.
It seems that many, maybe as many as 3 out of 4 smoothbored guns are found with rear sights before rifles became more common in the 3rd quarter of the 18th Century. :hmm:
Hamilton's book has a French Gun with a rear sight.
Jack Brooks has castings of an original French type D rear sight.
Clay Smith and the Rifle Shoppe have castings of the English Type G.
All are similar to the early Dutch butterfly style sight. Since these sights seem to be close to the same design and they tend to be mounted close to the breech regardless of country of origin, that might be clue that the sights were added here in North America.
Some Continental pieces have very decorative rear sights. These can be anywhere on the barrel up to the wedding bands and tend to be longer, more streamlined and of a more ornate complicated design.
It seems that many, maybe as many as 3 out of 4 smoothbored guns are found with rear sights before rifles became more common in the 3rd quarter of the 18th Century. :hmm:
Grandpa Ron
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There are great differences between hunting accuracy and target accuracy. Each has its purposes and methods. One can spend an inordinate amount of time preparing and aiming trying to punch the X ring; during which time any self-respecting deer would have wandered off. :wink:
Likewise if you question what a group of smoothbore shooters would do on the target range, I suspect it would be as good as a group of riflemen would do on the Skeet range. :hmm:
There are many different firearms and mindsets.
Likewise if you question what a group of smoothbore shooters would do on the target range, I suspect it would be as good as a group of riflemen would do on the Skeet range. :hmm:
There are many different firearms and mindsets.
Pierre LaPierre
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Hanshi, why do you except smooth rifles?
hanshi
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pepi43inpa said:
"Smoothrifles" all seem to be built and look like, well, rifles. The bores are slick but the barrels are heavier than the other types. Those who possess smoothrifles generally report more rifle-like accuracy at the 50 yard mark and farther. Fowlers and muskets have thinner barrels and give up a bit of accuracy to the smoothrifles. Make sense?
Ken Cormier
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My first flinter was a smooth bore.and over the years have learned to be fairly accurate with it. It is not a one hole shooter off hand thou I can keep it in the kill spot on a northern whitetail.It is not the gunne as off the bench it is right on. But I can not tell you how many thousands of rounds I have sent down range. The amount of accuracy with any w weapon is how well YOU pay attention to your shooting. For me it is doing the same thing everything the same every shot. It has worked for 30 plus years. My smoothie is my Centermark and it is my go to gunne. Just a rant
Pierre LaPierre
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Hanshi I understand your definition of a smoothbore. Hmnn, I am wondering: Does the slightly thinner barrel of the smoothbore vs smooth rifle equate to some barrel harmonics/vibration that could cause a bit less accuracy at the farther distances with a smoothbore? I have a Caywood 28ga/.54 cal smooth rifle English game gun with a 30" barrel, and am having a FAIW trade gun in 20/.62 cal being made. It will be light, so I assume it has a thinner barrel. Barrel will be 36" long. So, will the shorter, slightly thicker barrel of the Eng. game gun, make for a stiffer, less vibration/more accurate shooting gun, than the longer and thinner barrel of the Trade Gun? I apologize, as I know this was a definition question, as to why or why not include a smooth rifle in this mix, and not a splitting hairs accuracy question, but the thought just occurred to me. I also realize that there are two things introduced here: barrel thickness and also length of barrel. Just thinking of inherent accuracy - not sights and weight of gun as a factor contributing to accuracy. Your thoughts greatly appreciated.
Pierre
Pierre
hanshi
Cannon
Well, I really don't know and can only hazard a guess. I know from years of shooting and reloading modern cf rifles that a shorter barrel is stiffer than a longer one and precision target & long range rifles have lots of weight and thick barrels. It's only my supposition that this probably holds for smoothbores. In truth my smoothbore is more than accurate enough for deer at the ranges I see them. If I expect a 90, 100 yard shot I'll bring along a rifle. Accuracy isn't something I worry over; I've never, ever missed a shot on game due to a gun not being "accurate" enough. IMHO it would take a really bad gun to cause misses.
IMHO it would take a really bad gun to cause misses.
:thumbsup: and said gun would stay warm and dry in the gun cabinet during season!
:thumbsup: and said gun would stay warm and dry in the gun cabinet during season!
Smoothbores do not shoot as well as rifles, even at 50-60 yards. Will they kill deer at this distance? In most cases sure. But at 50 yards a good rifle can do head shots on deer. A rifled pistol will kill deer at 40-50 yards too.
Traders did not like rifles because their sales of powder and lead went down if too many natives used them. Documented in "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by DeWitt Bailey. In the 1750s-60s there was an attempt to prohibit rifles being traded to the natives because the were less expensive to shoot and they were bad because of the way the natives made war.
The classic example of the rifle vs smoothbore in real life is Morgan's Riflemen vs Burgoyne's Canadian and Native Scouts. Who virtually all went back to Canada when Morgan arrived at Saratoga. So even in the WOODS the smoothbore could not compete. One English officer was angry at the desertions and said those few that staid "could not be brought within sound of a rifle shot". I believe this is in both Huddleston's " Colonial Riflemen in the American Revolution" and "The Frontier Rifleman" by La Crosse.
Then we have Russell's accounts of the battles between SB armed natives and rifle armed trappers in the 1830s.
With no wind a decent rifle in the hands of a good shot from a "plank rest" (less steady than prone over a "chunk" or a modern shooting bench) will shot 10 shot strings in the 6" range at 60 yards, this is .6" average deviation from center. A plank rest is a traditional rest for turkey matches, beef shoots ect, when there was snow on the ground. Its easier for old guys that have problems getting up from prone.
This is a 4.087 inch string composite of the 10 targets shot with my 50 cal FL match rifle. Would have been a lot better had the wind not got me on #5. It essentially doubled the string.
Dan
Traders did not like rifles because their sales of powder and lead went down if too many natives used them. Documented in "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by DeWitt Bailey. In the 1750s-60s there was an attempt to prohibit rifles being traded to the natives because the were less expensive to shoot and they were bad because of the way the natives made war.
The classic example of the rifle vs smoothbore in real life is Morgan's Riflemen vs Burgoyne's Canadian and Native Scouts. Who virtually all went back to Canada when Morgan arrived at Saratoga. So even in the WOODS the smoothbore could not compete. One English officer was angry at the desertions and said those few that staid "could not be brought within sound of a rifle shot". I believe this is in both Huddleston's " Colonial Riflemen in the American Revolution" and "The Frontier Rifleman" by La Crosse.
Then we have Russell's accounts of the battles between SB armed natives and rifle armed trappers in the 1830s.
With no wind a decent rifle in the hands of a good shot from a "plank rest" (less steady than prone over a "chunk" or a modern shooting bench) will shot 10 shot strings in the 6" range at 60 yards, this is .6" average deviation from center. A plank rest is a traditional rest for turkey matches, beef shoots ect, when there was snow on the ground. Its easier for old guys that have problems getting up from prone.
This is a 4.087 inch string composite of the 10 targets shot with my 50 cal FL match rifle. Would have been a lot better had the wind not got me on #5. It essentially doubled the string.
Dan
Many Klatch
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Dan, never heard the phrase "Plank Rest". I like the part about "easier for old guys that have problems getting up from prone". Could you explain what a Plank Rest is?
It's a plank (board) set at an incline to rest the rifle on. With a wide plank the shooter can lay out on it.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/272923/
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Many Klatch
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I'm going to have to try that.
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