SMRs and long barrels

[tenngun]

Longer barrels on military style rifles they're all fixed with a bayonet.
The long rifles with the bayonet replaced the pike soldiers.
Once the armies of the world figured out that they didn't need Pike soldiers anymore. They armed all their Frontline people with a musket and a bayonet. They didn't need a completely separate division.

Trade companies trade guns. They made them longer because standing the butt on the ground. tell the Indians you want this gun? I need this many hides, longer the gun the more hides.

Those long barrel rifles cap locks, I've always questioned why in a cash & material strapped society.
Why would you use a third more steel and a barrel than what was actually needed?
Try walking through the woods with a 60-in long rifle. Now imagine how thick the woods were 150 200 years ago.

The target rifle I can see having a longer thicker barrel on it. Shooting over a log those guns are going to weight in at 10 11 12 14 lb. Plus
These powder manufacturers and gun makers they already had all the calculations down.

The only thing I can figure since I've never seen it in actual writing.
People like the longer Barrel on a gun. I'd have to be longer right ,so it would work better.
More steel more money

That’s a myth about a pile of fur for the gun.
Indians were very wise buyers, and the trader best beware of not having the right goods.
Indians were so married to the NWG that makers like Leman and contractors from Belgium were forced to turn out copies of the NWG, even down to the proof marks
About 1842 taste changed from bigger pony bead to smaller seed beads, and companies got caught with barrels of beads they couldn’t sell.
Blankets are remembered as white or light blue with one fat bar. But records indicate constant wrangling with color and stripe designs
The early NWG and the Carolina gun were both built as imitations of the French trade guns, and kept that French flair until after the French and Indian war.
Pontiacs rebellion was driven by Amherst drive to increase prices and lower quality to make Indians work more and have less time for war.

 

[Cayman like]

Longer barrels on military style rifles they're all fixed with a bayonet.
The long rifles with the bayonet replaced the pike soldiers.
Once the armies of the world figured out that they didn't need Pike soldiers anymore. They armed all their Frontline people with a musket and a bayonet. They didn't need a completely separate division.

Trade companies trade guns. They made them longer because standing the butt on the ground. tell the Indians you want this gun? I need this many hides, longer the gun the more hides.

Those long barrel rifles cap locks, I've always questioned why in a cash & material strapped society.
Why would you use a third more steel and a barrel than what was actually needed?
Try walking through the woods with a 60-in long rifle. Now imagine how thick the woods were 150 200 years ago.

The target rifle I can see having a longer thicker barrel on it. Shooting over a log those guns are going to weight in at 10 11 12 14 lb. Plus
These powder manufacturers and gun makers they already had all the calculations down.

The only thing I can figure since I've never seen it in actual writing.
People like the longer Barrel on a gun. I'd have to be longer right ,so it would work better.
More steel more money

What?

 

[ETipp]

Anything along the coast & inland had pretty much been clear-cut by 1820.

Perhaps along the eastern coast. But in terms of inland, I highly doubt that. In fact I know it isn't true especially in KY, NC, TN WV and most likely much of MO and AR.

One of the main reasons why rifle barrels began to get shorter was during the westward push in the 1840's or so. It was mostly due to people being on horseback as well as the need for lager bore projectiles to cope with lager and more dangerous game, such as grizz and buffalo. It has also been said that much of the reason for lager bore was due to Indians. Most of the time Indians fell from one shot from a smaller bore projectile but they didn't fall fast enough.

A longer barrel with a larger bore would be much, much heavier.

 

[Notchy Bob]

There are other factors besides barrel length. Here are two first hand tests or experiments, if you will, that I have done and the results.

Two 54 caliber rifles. One a 28" barrel tc Hawken. The other a 32" barrel Lyman GPR. Off to the range with the chronograph!

Both rifles were loaded with the same balls, patch and lube. If memory serves, the charge was 80 grains goex ff. The 28 inch barrel shot an average of 70 fps faster than the 32" barrel .

That was unexpected! The difference?? The TC 28" barrel was quite a bit tighter than the GPR. All the way down a tighter load. The tighter the load the more inertia. IOW, the more it takes to get it moving. The more it takes to get it moving the more efficient the powder burn and therefore higher velocity.

The second experiment was with the same GPR as above. The Lyman GPRs have a much rougher bore than the tc. The TC was bored and then button rifled and is much smoother leaving the factory. The GPR are (actually "were") bored and cut rifled. Much rougher and lots of machine marks. At the time I was doing a lot of firelapping of modern guns and I decided to firelap the GPR. When it was completed I chronographed it afterward with the same exact components and now it was even slower. The same explanation comes into play; the smoother barrel is now less resistant and there is less inertia therefore less velocity. The same comparison if it were redone would have had the shorter tighter barrel shooting even faster than the 32" GPR.

Anyone who has a chronograph can test this for themselves. Shoot a regular load and patch and then compare with a very tight load (thicker patch or larger ball. I predict tighter will be faster.

I've observed the same thing with lube differences. Compare with all the same components except use a very slippery lube and compare to less slippery. Dutch's dry patch system is tighter and shoots faster than any of the slippery stuff all else being equal.

None of this are suggestions on what you should choose to shoot in your gun. These velocity differences are not necessarily worth pursuing. They just illustrate a few factors that effect how the differences.

That’s a good post, @longcruise ! I spent my working career in a science-based profession, and appreciate controlled testing and careful, objective interpretation of the resulting data.

I would be interested in the results from re-testing that fire-lapped GPR with a slightly larger ball.

Good work there, bud!

Notchy Bob

 

[tenngun]

Perhaps along the eastern coast. But in terms of inland, I highly doubt that. In fact I know it isn't true especially in KY, NC, TN WV and most likely much of MO and AR.

One of the main reasons why rifle barrels began to get shorter was during the westward push in the 1840's or so. It was mostly due to people being on horseback as well as the need for lager bore projectiles to cope with lager and more dangerous game, such as grizz and buffalo. It has also been said that much of the reason for lager bore was due to Indians. Most of the time Indians fell from one shot from a smaller bore projectile but they didn't fall fast enough.

A longer barrel with a larger bore would be much, much heavier.

I’ve oft been forced to wonder about that common explanation. The east was as rich with big game as the west. With the exception of Grizzly bears. Woodland buffalo were bigger than their plains cousin. Elk were more common then deer, moose were common into the Kentucky region
As game got hunted out smaller calibers became common, but barrels didn’t shrink.
Although Europeans made rifles with ‘full sized’ barrels most European rifles were in two and a half foot range.
The German smiths in America who made rifles made the first ones fairly short
Well short is easier to handle on a horse, it seems, but the typical rifleman in the east, the long hunter and the over mountain men were as likely to be horse back as his western grand child.
And we would see the Hawkins Leman and such ‘short barreled rifles, but the gun the Mountain men, or Santa Fe trail guys packed a long rifle made in Pennsylvania
While this was progressing we see english rifles and other guns get shorter about 1790. At the time Harpers ferry is making the 1803 the Ohio gunsmiths were perfecting the short sporting small caliber rifle
The wealthy landowner around Cincinnati is popping bunnies with a short barreled rifle carried afoot before Hawken was selling plains rifle and before Leman was born

 

[Packrat]

Interesting that a smoothed out barrell will be slower than a rough barrel, did I read that correctly?
If true, so much for lapping and polishing. How is accuracy effected, smooth ot rough?
AAs my PMI said, Hits count

 

[wiscoaster]

Interesting that a smoothed out barrell will be slower than a rough barrel, did I read that correctly?
If true, so much for lapping and polishing. How is accuracy effected, smooth ot rough?

I have the same question. It sounds so counter-intuitive.

 

[brazosland]

I have the same question. It sounds so counter-intuitive.

In modern internal ballistics the more resistance you have in the bore, the more the pressure spikes behind the bullet, this pressure spike leads to higher velocity. It also leads to less accurate (due to this: inconsistent velocity) shooting.

You see this most often when using monolithic (solid core) bullets like the Barnes X style. Every bullet jumps from the case into the lands at the forcing cone. A lead core bullet has some give due to the lead core. A solid core bullet has no give (obturation is the technical term) and thus it will literally pause or stop as it meets the lands. This causes a pressure spike.

There are other issues to related to accuracy that are outside this discussion.

Internal Ballistics are really interesting. There is a lot going in there in milliseconds that have big effects on what we see in External Ballistics.

Sorry, my inner nerd slipped out…

 

[longcruise]

Interesting that a smoothed out barrell will be slower than a rough barrel, did I read that correctly?
If true, so much for lapping and polishing. How is accuracy effected, smooth ot rough?

Accuracy always improved with all the ML barrels I ever lapped. Minor losses in velocity can be recovered by adding a few more grains of powder.

 

[DixieTexian]

Perhaps along the eastern coast. But in terms of inland, I highly doubt that. In fact I know it isn't true especially in KY, NC, TN WV and most likely much of MO and AR.

One of the main reasons why rifle barrels began to get shorter was during the westward push in the 1840's or so. It was mostly due to people being on horseback as well as the need for lager bore projectiles to cope with lager and more dangerous game, such as grizz and buffalo. It has also been said that much of the reason for lager bore was due to Indians. Most of the time Indians fell from one shot from a smaller bore projectile but they didn't fall fast enough.

A longer barrel with a larger bore would be much, much heavier.

Yep. East Texas wasn't clear cut until the early 20th century. Before then there were longleaf pine savannas with mostly grass nd herbaceous understories controlled by frequent burning. Deer weren't nearly as common as they are now and stayed more in the bottomless where there were more hardwoods and better habitat for them. Our woods in the south are now dominated by loblolly pine (not nearly as fire tolerant, so burning is used less frequently until they reach a certain age) and woody shrubs and vines, many of which aren't native and weren't around back in the day.

 

[longcruise]

Here's a math problem that you can solve for yourself if you take the time and effort to gather the numbers.

Chrono a patched ball and a heavy conical from the same barrel with the same powder charge. Then calculate the fps to powder charge ratio to see which is getting more velocity per grain of powder. Of course the conical will be slower but it's velocity per grain of powder will be higher due to a more efficient powder burn and pressure spike due to the weight of the conical.

Actually, you don't have to do any shooting. Just go to a reliable source of data and use their results to apply the math.

 

[springfield art]

Can you show us your documentation on why you think this premise is valid?

So some rifles made for those going West of the Mississippi, were shorter barrels, and British made North West Trade Guns had shorter barrels, but....,

Trade Rifles, which were traded West of the Mississippi, and Eastern rifles were still quite long, some in fact more than 44"

Derringer made trade rifle, circa 1818, 2,000 made and overall length was 60"... contracted by US Government, (by officials living well East of the Mississippi)

View attachment 247088

The British military from the 1760's through the ACW only shortened their musket by 3" to 39"..., even when they later rifled their rifles the Enfield was a 39" rifled musket...., for the infantry

The US military used the Springfield was a 40" barrel in the ACW.... for the infantry

So I think that the answer was the sighting plane and not used on horseback, especially when reloading.

LD

Remember, too, early on the military relied on the Bayonet, and the longer Brown Bess or French muskets became sort of a "spear" or "pike" requiring longer reach.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Remember, too, early on the military relied on the Bayonet, and the longer Brown Bess or French muskets became sort of a "spear" or "pike" requiring longer reach.

AH but they went from 46+ inches down to 39", and the bayonets got shorter too. Part of that is to be able to fire in ranks, and when the third rank disappears, the muskets start to shorten. IF the length was about the bayonet, then rifles having no bayonet wouldn't have musket length barrels, eh?

LD