Some help - 4 bore

[Andy Q.]

Hi Guys,
I whish to order a round ball mould for a 4bore rifle : exact diameter 25,4 mm - 1 inch . I was thinking about a 0.96 diameter bullet. Is it too big ? Please give me your opinions....

In addition, do you know someone able to make custom accessories for muzzleloading such as cleaning jags .

Thanks for any help..!!

Cheers,
Andrea

 

[LawrenceA]

Generally speaking it is best to measure the bore particularly on originals as you need to know the distance between the lands to calculate the ball size and originals varied considerably.

 

[Andy Q.]

Hi Lawrence,
The exact bore is 24,5mm ( 1 inch ) three groves barrel. The barrel is made for a winged bullet but I would rather use a "lighter" round ball.

Cheers,
Andrea

 

[Feltwad]

There was also a conical bullet used on a swivel ships gun for blasting out the rigging
Feltwad

4

Bore conical bullet against a 577 mini

 

[Andy Q.]

Its mould cast a 2855 grains bullet. A proper load starts from not less than 14/16 drams of powder. Recoil is too nervous even if it's a heavy gun.. for this reason I want use a round patched ball...

 

[LawrenceA]

Hi Lawrence,
The exact bore is 24,5mm ( 1 inch ) three groves barrel. The barrel is made for a winged bullet but I would rather use a "lighter" round ball.

Cheers,
Andrea

Oh Andrea
Here we see the issues. 4 Bore is nominally 26.7mm (1.052").
May I ask are the lands very wide and shallow or narrow and deep?
3 grooves will make it difficult to measure between the lands and grooves. I am not that knowledgable when it comes to such exotic stuff.
If you are absolutely sure about the 1" measurement then measure between the top of the land on one side to the bottom of the groove on the other.
deduct this from the 1" and you have the height of the land.

Generally speaking, the ball diameter plus twice the patch thickness should at least equal the groove diameter. In your case 1".
That means that deeper grooves require a thicker patch.

So if you find that the grooves are 15 thou then you need a patch of at east 15 thou (18 thou is commonly used) and your ball will need to be about 10 thou smaller than the lands.

As far as a mold is concerned these guys can make one.
https://www.ballmoulds.com/Any machine shop could turn up a jag as long as you can specify threads. If you do not have a range rod I would get one made.

You are obviously intending to shoot this gun and as such you NEED to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith or risk damaging yourself and those around you.

Sorry I can't be more help.

 

[TFoley]

We'll probably hear the KaBOOM! from here.

 

[Rudyard]

I have a three grouved rifle evidently meant for three winged projectile .I made a mould for it but a plain bullet went better up to 500 yards . it also shot patched round 490 cal ball reliably the pitch is one in 30" its sight rather like a more delicate 1851 Service Minie .It seemed to like swaged 50 cal Maxi bullets . It came as a rusted relic barrel .Cost me a whole three pounds. (From Stan Share at Nott's arms fair ) So I adapted an old single shotgun stock that had no barrel . I added a spur guard & a steel patch / cap / tool box . The hollow nose three winged bullet was a devil stopper on deer just didn't like 100 yards, I never shot beyond 500 yards but the ladder went well over . Rust steak it may be but I shot it a lot . I beat 451 Match rifles even a 461 Gibbs full match at 300 & 500 yds .And I carried it on one 12 day trip through the Coast range of British Columbia Mosley Creak/ Homathka river to Bute Inlet used it as a depth gage one dodgy section ! Only wanted small game but its grizzly country . I mostly decorated my camps with unused Maxies one camp was' Cleft camp' historic camp of the road builders crew killed by Chilcotin Indians on near by' Murderers Bar' in 1863'. Spooky place I woke up holding the rifle but went back to sleep . Knowing the story I don't blame Klatassini & his band but the waggon road to the Barkerville gold strike never got Waddington's road through , if traces remained of it . Plus the graves below the canyon . Though logger's logged over them ...How usefull this info is cant say but was same rifleing plan suggest a felt wad go down first but mine worked if it being lightish certainly booted my shoulder shot prone . I never knew there was an Elephant problem in Italy ! .
Regards Rudyard

 

[LawrenceA]

I never knew there was an Elephant problem in Italy ! .

There used to be. I think a bloke called Hannibal was to blame.

 

[toot]

I wonder how HANABALL got the ELEPHANTS to keep there snow shoes on, with the trek over the ALPS?? must have been a feat???

 

[toot]

FEAT, no pun intended, FEET.

 

[Andy Q.]

Oh Andrea
Here we see the issues. 4 Bore is nominally 26.7mm (1.052").
May I ask are the lands very wide and shallow or narrow and deep?
3 grooves will make it difficult to measure between the lands and grooves. I am not that knowledgable when it comes to such exotic stuff.
If you are absolutely sure about the 1" measurement then measure between the top of the land on one side to the bottom of the groove on the other.
deduct this from the 1" and you have the height of the land.

Generally speaking, the ball diameter plus twice the patch thickness should at least equal the groove diameter. In your case 1".
That means that deeper grooves require a thicker patch.

So if you find that the grooves are 15 thou then you need a patch of at east 15 thou (18 thou is commonly used) and your ball will need to be about 10 thou smaller than the lands.

As far as a mold is concerned these guys can make one.
https://www.ballmoulds.com/Any machine shop could turn up a jag as long as you can specify threads. If you do not have a range rod I would get one made.

You are obviously intending to shoot this gun and as such you NEED to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith or risk damaging yourself and those around you.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Dear Lawrence ..thank you,
you're right the nominal diameter for a 4 bore is 26.7mm , but this has a bore of 25.4mm. Gun was made 29 years ago and probably it fired just few shots as it's in almost mint conditions.
I post you a pic of the bore. Grooves are 0.635 deep if I remember well , the barrel maker told this to me. You're right for deep grooves it needs a thick patch... I contacted the forum for an opinion about ball size and patch tockness....

Andrea

 

[Flinty Scot]

Rudyard,
The function of a "spur guard" is in the name, but don't think I've seen one & am having trouble visualizing it. Could you describe it a bit? Thanks.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Flinty .Yes the spur guard is simply a curve bar much like a scroll guard but no curled end acts as a pistol grip in effect . I have difficulty posting pics will try get some via Lawrence who's ' E I have . The rifling shown is essensially a three grouve but not meant for a winged projectile per Jacobs. But my rifleing is so deep it leaves no doubt . Most of these Mechanicaly fitted projectiles will up set from round bullets the Whitworth being a common example . Load round, shoot, & 300 yards away hex holes in target .We think of the Brunswick rifle but all sorts of shaped rifleing was tried oval, square , heart shaped .The Brunswick was a military issue made in numbers .most all rendered obsolete once the Minie principal was excepted. But some die hards like me stuck to the belted ball though it offers NO ballistic advantage. I bought the barrel cheap & if a trifle rusted externaly the bore was quite perfect locks in each case plain' Local trade' India made ones 10/R each .
Now Ile try send some pics so this might make more sense
.Rudyard

 

[Grenadier1758]

I am assuming that you, @Andy Q. , are giving us dimensions in millimeters. Your bore diameter is 1.00 inches. Your depth is 0.025 inches. Those are deep grooves and for most of us difficult to measure in a three land rifle.

I would be thinking of a 0.985 inch diameter ball and 0.025 inches (0.635 mm) or 0.030 inches (0.762 mm) thick patches. The 0.960 inch diameter ball might be too small. A 0.980 inch ball or 0.985 inch ball in a nest of shredded hemp twine or tow (flax fibers from making linen) would also work.

My unit has a 4 gauge Long Range Musket (wall gun) smooth bore. We have shot live rounds from it using a 0.980 ball and a nest of shredded hemp twine. But we were not trying for accuracy, just experience. Terminal performance is impressive.

 

[Flinty Scot]

Rudyard,
Thanks. That makes sense. The image I conjured from the term did not.
I find the variety of rifling experiments fascinating.Still trying to figure out "straight" rifling I've seen reference to. Another search.

 

[LawrenceA]

Dear Lawrence ..thank you,
you're right the nominal diameter for a 4 bore is 26.7mm , but this has a bore of 25.4mm. Gun was made 29 years ago and probably it fired just few shots as it's in almost mint conditions.
I post you a pic of the bore. Grooves are 0.635 deep if I remember well , the barrel maker told this to me. You're right for deep grooves it needs a thick patch... I contacted the forum for an opinion about ball size and patch tockness....

Andrea

Ho Ho Ho
That looks AWESOME!
Apologies but I felt that we needed to be sure.
I think @Grenadier1758 has a lot more knowledge and experience than myself so I believe his advice is gold.

I would be thinking of a 0.985 inch diameter ball and 0.025 inches (0.635 mm) or 0.030 inches (0.762 mm) thick patches. The 0.960 inch diameter ball might be too small. A 0.980 inch ball or 0.985 inch ball in a nest of shredded hemp twine or tow (flax fibers from making linen) would also work.

My unit has a 4 gauge Long Range Musket (wall gun) smooth bore. We have shot live rounds from it using a 0.980 ball and a nest of shredded hemp twine. But we were not trying for accuracy, just experience. Terminal performance is impressive.

 

[LawrenceA]

Any chance of more pictures???
Please

 

[Grenadier1758]

I should have done some more conversions:

A ball of 0.985 inches would be 25.0 mm.
A ball of 0.990 inches would be 25.15 mm
the ball of 0.960 inches would be 24.4 mm.

I think for purposes of demonstration the nest of shredded hemp twine is what I would use. After firing, you could gather up the smoldering hemp and start a fire. A quick spray of some soapy water in the hemp nest would cut down on any fire hazard.

 

[LawrenceA]

@Grenadier1758
Elephants are afraid of fire. It is a secondary line of defense me thinks.