Something I Learned about Aiming

[Flash Pan Dan]

The other day I took my TVM 20 gauge fowler out and shot it at the 25 yards offhand and shot an incredible 5 shot one hole group in the X ring. This is the best I group I have ever shot doing that with any rifle. One of the rangemasters came over and was astounded to see the group and that my fowler didn’t have a rear sight. This all made me think about how I have been using sights all my life.

So today I performed a experiment. I took my 50 cal. Southern Mountain rifle out with a modification I made to the rear sight. I filed the notch in the rear sight wider than I would consider practicable. I shot it sitting on at a bench at 50 yards and focused on the pressure of my cheek on the stock and the front sight and shot the best group I have ever shot with that flintlock. Three of the shots were touching and the other 2 were just barely missed touching the other three. Overall the group was a little over an inch. The second group was not as good, but it still was better than any group I had previously shot with this rifle. I was starting to loose my focus. It was really hard not to focus on the sight picture as hard as I usually do but I am amazed at the improvement in the groups by reducing the emphases on the alignment with rear sight.

This may all be old news to a lot of shooters but it is a revelation to me. I don’t know if I wasn’t focusing on the front sight enough, I thought I was, but I could be wrong. Next will be a few offhand groups. What do you all think? Am I going in the right direction with this?

 

[Bill Hall]

Well, I think I'm going keep that in mind the next time I go shooting. Front sight and cheek pressure. Thanks. Bill

 

[bwhoffman]

Two old sayings come to mind......

"keep your head down"
and
"Stay in the gun"

Glad its working for you!

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Some of the best rifle shooters I have ever known are also instinctual archery shooters. The first thing you learn in that discipline is to focus on the target, not the weapon. I shoot my open sighted rifles the same way. I put almost all my focus on the target, not on the front sight, and definitely not on the rear sight.

If a rifle fits properly and you are focusing on your target properly then I believe you will be a better shooter.

I have seen too many shooters who focus on the sights instead of the target. I know you have heard these guys before. They will tell you how the bring the rifle up or down or left or right to the target, then touch off when the reach the target. Instead of holding on, and staying on the target.

It has been my experience that the best shooters are the guys who focus and hold on the target itself. Tom.

 

[R.M.]

Some of the best rifle shooters I have ever known are also instinctual archery shooters. The first thing you learn in that discipline is to focus on the target, not the weapon. I shoot my open sighted rifles the same way. I put almost all my focus on the target, not on the front sight, and definitely not on the rear sight.

If a rifle fits properly and you are focusing on your target properly then I believe you will be a better shooter.

I have seen too many shooters who focus on the sights instead of the target. I know you have heard these guys before. They will tell you how the bring the rifle up or down or left or right to the target, then touch off when the reach the target. Instead of holding on, and staying on the target.

It has been my experience that the best shooters are the guys who focus and hold on the target itself. Tom.

I have to disagree with you on this. I've been on the National pistol team for Canada, and have rubbed elbows with the top shooters in the world, and every one of them will tell you to focus on the front sight. Doesn't matter if it's pistol or rifle. Now shotgun, that's a whole nuther can of worms. Conventional thinking is to focus on the target with the scattergun, but that's not my game, so I just take their word for it.

 

[ohio ramrod]

When my shooting went south after getting bifocals, I was told to focus first priority on the front sight , then target and ignor the rear sight. This helped me until the trifocals came into use, now nothing seems to get my shooting back to were it was. But the powder smoke still intocates the same.

 

[Zonie]

It might not help you at all but I found that by going to the local drug store and trying them out I could find a pair of low cost reading glasses that cleared up my vision at 3-6 feet.
This is just about the right distance for a front sight, be it on a rifle or on a pistol held at arms length.

I had to try out several different pairs and found that the lower power glasses give a wider range of focus.

It's worth a try. :hmm:

 

[HOGGHEAD]

RM I am not saying you are wrong. If you shoot that well then I would like to shoot with you, normally when I shoot with a better shooter I go away with a little more knowledge about shooting, so I am sure I would probably learn something.

I probably should have stated that my comments are what has worked for me. However I do believe a handgun is different from a long gun. But you are still using open sights.

Personally I have a hard time hitting my target if I focus on the front sight. Maybe it is the was I was taught, or maybe it is jut my eye sight. I do not know which it is.

I do know this. An instinctive archery shooter focuses on the target. And I tend to shoot my firearms more from an instinctual point of view. But then I also do alot of instinctive revolver point shooting. So I guess I just subscribe to a different practice.

But I do respect what you say, and your accomplishments speak for themself. Good discussion. Tom.

 

[R.M.]

Open sights is open sights. It's just that on a rifle, they're further apart.
The way it has been drilled into my head is, the relationship between the 2 sights are more important than the placement on the target. We are taught to accept our wobble, whatever it might be, and as long as the sights are perfect, wherever the front sight is, that's where you hit. If your front sight is too snug to the side of the rear's gap, even if the front sight is sitting smack dab on the X, it ain't going there.
It took me many years to accept this fact. I'd try focusing on the front sight, for a few shots, and of course it didn't work as they said, and I'd go back. I was working with the U.S. coach, and he asked me once after a poor string, "Did you see the front sight, did were you looking at the front sight, or were you focusing on the front sight.". A common phrase heard whenever somebody is struggling, is " Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight.".
Should you think, "Then the target gets blurry". Yes it might. But, so what. If you're using a center hold, the center of a blurry gray blob is still the center.
We are also taught that a 6 o'clock hold is the worst to choose. WE tend to try and be too precise. I personally, along with many others, aim about half way between the bottom of the target and the bottom of the black. It's what they call "Area" aiming. In fact, try taking a target and shoot at the back of it. Just aim at the area that you normally use, be it center or whatever. Just pat attention to your sights, and aim in your area. In Olympic Air Pistol, I have done this in a demonstration. I turned the target over and scored it. It was a high 90s, which is about the same as I would shoot on a good day. The black is just a distraction.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I would like to clarify a few points as to what I was doing. Let me give you a little background. I have competed internationally with a shotgun and nationally with rifle and bow (shooting a longbow instinctively.) My shotguns were fitted to me by factory stock makers at Perazzi and Beretta. The rear sight on a shotgun is the buttplate in the pocket of your shoulder and the front sight is your cheek weld on the comb of the stock, my shotguns, like the shotguns of many others I competed with, has no beads. And like a few others the pattern is 100% above the barrels at 35 yards. This was set up so that I wasn’t even conscience of the barrels when I shot. 100% focus on the target.

Now with the bow I had 90% focus on the target and 10% on where the arrow point was, at full draw, in relation to the target. In Highpower Rifle your focus is on the front sight the rear aperture is a blurred ring and the target is a blurred dot in the middle of your front aperture. I mention all this to illustrate that I have had some experience and a little bit success with all these shooting platforms. But the experience I had shooting my smoothbore was a revelation because it seemed to combine elements of all these other platforms to produce a result that exceeded all my expectations and previous results.

The rifle test I did was to, as best as possible, put less emphasis the rear sight. I did not ignore the rear sight, but by focusing on the cheek weld on the comb, the sights aligned automatically. I did not have to focus on it as much. My focus was on the front sight apparently more that I had before, though I was more conscience of placement of the front sight on the target. I am now thinking that by removing (putting less emphasis) one visual element and replacing it with a tactile element it simplified the sighting process. Again I am still in the process of thinking all this through and how much is practical to field use. Please let me know what you are thinking on this subject.

Thanks.

 

[C Barker]

Ay-men, Ohio Ramrod. Eyes are shot but still fun to shoot at BIG targets. Zonie's idea is a good one except eye surgery is in the near future. Hope all I've heard about cataract surgery being great is true. Up till now I have gone both ways, front sight--target, depending on the day. Archery is always the target with back tension.

 

[Zonie]

Without the cataract surgery done 6 years ago I would be totally blind by now.

 

[hockeyref]

Dan,
Since you said that you have some background in rifle I'll put it in terms we can both relate to. This IS a rifle with "Iron Sight" albeit not peep and post... You gotta be consistent in placing the butt into the shoulder and have the same cheek weld. This stabilizes and gives you a consistent head position and helps to consistently align your eye with the sights. Then it's all about B.R.A.S.S. ... the focus is on the front sight. Rear sight and target will be fuzzy, but consistently aligned. Without it, you have an inconsistent sight picture even if it "looks right" because you are moving your head around and your eye does not remain centered on\over the sights.

~A fellow Small Bore, High Power, MR Prone, LR Prone, stick bow, an struggling newbie Trap Shooter.

 

[Tom Compton]

Hey, Wolf Eyes, if cataract surgery is what you need, it is an answer to prayers. I had to basically deside to leave the hardware in the safe and just enjoy memories until I had cataract surgery in 2008. Now shooting flintlocks and .45s almost as well as 25 years ago.

When talking with the opthalmologist, he said my lense looked like a shower door (hammered look). Said the left would be getting there soon so did I want the right eye to be set up for close or far as the left could be the other. I extended my right fist with the thumb up and said I wanted to just barely be able to see the thumb nail clearly. Front sight on the 45 and on the 42" barrels are now crisp.
Good Luck
TC

 

[crockett]

Flash Pan Dan- when you say you opened up the rear sight, by how much and what configuration- a U or a V or square? How much light shows on the sides of the front sight? I'm wondering if you sort of created a "half peep" sight. Tell more.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I square the bottom of my rear sights. I want equal amount of daylight showing on both sides of the front sight POST, as it is seen through the rear sight. I aim to achieve the same amount of daylight on each side of the post as the POST IS WIDE, again, as seen through the rear sight. [The square sides help me keep from "canting" the gun's barrel as I am shooting.]

Use a fine jeweler's file to do this work, and take your time. Much stopping to put the sight back in the gun, and check the rear sight, as you are filing. File some, Check; File some, Check. This is surely the best example I know of "Haste makes Waste". Take your time, and do it right. NO, its not easy. The worth while things we achieve in life rarely are. :hmm: :idunno: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

Hockyref, You are absolutely correct, but you have to admit it’s a lot easier to get a good stock fit in a target rifle when you have four way adjustable buttplate and a three way adjustable cheek piece.

Crockette, I did as Paul V. recommends in his post with the only difference being I widen the rear sight to have two and a half times the width of the front sight worth of light on either side of the front sight as seen through the rear sight. This was an experiment and not what I would normally have for my rear sight or recommend at this point. I have replaced the rear sight and am redoing the test with progressively wider and wider opening to see if I need to go as wide as I did or even if I have to go wider. I use the thickest iron front sight I could find. In this new experiment I am beveling the front of the rear sight to give me more of an edge in the notch. Not an easy thing to do but I want to see if the sharpens the rear sight picture and how that effects the results.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Beveling the front edge does help a bit. My friend, George Mitchell, made a rear sight out of three Razor Blades, epoxied together, for his Chunk Gun. The Razor edges formed the three sides of a square-bottomed "U" for his rear sight. He won the Sgt. York Memorial Chunk Gun Shooting Match one year with that set up. Obviously, he trimmed away the excess metal from the three razor blades.

I saw the sight. The image was very clear against those edges.

 

[hockeyref]

Hockyref, You are absolutely correct, but you have to admit it’s a lot easier to get a good stock fit in a target rifle when you have four way adjustable buttplate and a three way adjustable cheek piece.

Crockette, I did as Paul V. recommends in his post with the only difference being I widen the rear sight to have two and a half times the width of the front sight worth of light on either side of the front sight as seen through the rear sight. This was an experiment and not what I would normally have for my rear sight or recommend at this point. I have replaced the rear sight and am redoing the test with progressively wider and wider opening to see if I need to go as wide as I did or even if I have to go wider. I use the thickest iron front sight I could find. In this new experiment I am beveling the front of the rear sight to give me more of an edge in the notch. Not an easy thing to do but I want to see if the sharpens the rear sight picture and how that effects the results.

Dan,
We use a "tapered from post" on the AR Service Rifle. The top and side edges taper rear to front with the front side being lower and narrower than the rear. This will give you about as crisp of a front post as you can get.

Yeah the adjustments can be great - or can cause problems if you tweak too much or don't have a good idea of how to use them.

 

[J.D.]

with "Iron Sight" albeit not peep and post... You gotta be consistent in placing the butt into the shoulder and have the same cheek weld. This stabilizes and gives you a consistent head position and helps to consistently align your eye with the sights. Then it's all about B.R.A.S.S. ... the focus is on the front sight. Rear sight and target will be fuzzy, but consistently aligned. Without it, you have an inconsistent sight picture even if it "looks right" because you are moving your head around and your eye does not remain centered on\over the sights.

~A fellow Small Bore, High Power, MR Prone, LR Prone, stick bow, an struggling newbie Trap Shooter.

You got that right on. Focusing on the target will get you shotgun groups. Focusing on the front sight and allowing the target and rear sight to blur will get you good rifle groups.

Now, I'm not a master class competitor, but I did qualify to compete at All Army Competitions two years, during my high power days...and that ain't no mean feat. And I have a few gold belt buckles to prove it. :wink:

God bless