Son in law's poor ignition on Lyman Great Planes 50 cal percussion

[Ames]

Remove nipple and clean out screw. Check.
Clean in a bucket of warm, not hot, water. Check.
Swab dry with alcohol. Check.
Clean the rear end flash channel and breech with a pipe cleaner. Surprising what hides around a corner sometimes. Check.
Wash and dry the nipple inside and out. Check.
Swab the bore with Barricade. Check.
Reassemble. Store nose down.Check.
Never had to pop a cap or deal with fail to fire.


And if you think the length of the barrel is getting dirty during an extended range session, and you feel you have to run a patch down it, run the patch after loading, not before. That way any loose barrel crud ends up on top of the load, not down in the flash.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Yes, its taken three years for the fouling to build up enough to block the flash channel. Fouling is getting pushed into the breech by swabbing between shots using a tight fitting cleaning patch and jag the pushes fouling into the chambered breech.

Everyone on this forum has given some good advice and thanks for that.
Grenadier, how can fouling build up in the breech over the years when it is cleaned by pumping hot soapy water through the nipple every time it is shot? The water streams out the nipple making the bucket of water black. I really have a hard time understanding build up when it is cleaned each use. If he is doing poor cleaning, I would agree, but my SIL is thorough.
Thanks
Flintlocklar

 

[Phil Coffins]

Larry, you describe you SIL as thorough and I believe from your many posts that you know enough about muzzle loading to be right. The Lyman rifle and pistol have the same breech design and give good service. I’ve pulled the patent breech on my rifle a few years ago and there was no build up at all. It’s a different brand but I clean the same as how you do. Many pounds of powder left nothing over 30 years of use. I’d be looking at other possibilities rather then build up.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I’ve been following this, but cannot remember every thread and too lazy to re-read, so...
As I understand, always been cleaned with the bucket and flush system, so channel should be clear. Oiled after cleaning with excess wiped off and properly stored. Caps snapped prior to loading, and I will assume checking with the “blade of grass” method ensuring communication. In my opinion all of this is being done correctly, so what changed?
New caps? New powder? Different granulation of powder? Nipple collapsed or crushed?
If the nipple is good, I would use real black powder in 3fg and be slapping the side to ensure powder is settling right to the nipple.
Walk

 

[Carbon 6]

If he is doing poor cleaning, I would agree, but my SIL is thorough.

OK, then let's assume it's a component problem and start there. Powder, patch, lube and caps.

 

[Grenadier1758]

It may not be the three years of shooting. The fouling may be building up during the shooting session. In my shooting experience with a chambered breech (Cherry Corners style), I found that when I wiped between shots with a damp patch and my full bore sized jag, I pushed enough fouling into my breech that I experienced a failure to fire after about 8 shots. This was especially true when I used a lot of oil to store the gun after cleaning (hot soapy water pumped through the breech in a bucket of water). That oil would exacerbate the fouling and at that time I used Elephant powder. No wonder I had a lot of fouling. The solution was to run a damp patch to the breech and fire a cap. You would be surprised at how much fouling would be pushed into the patch and observed on the patch when the cleaning rod was extracted. The cure was switching to a cleaner powder, using less oil when storing the rifle, using rubbing alcohol on my thinner wiping patch. I also paid attention to see if I could see some smoke come from the nipple (or touch hole if shooting flint locks) during the after shot wipe.

So, our message is to take care with your wiping between shots methodology, Use a thinner wiping patch dampened with rubbing alcohol. Fire a cap into a damp patch after about five shots to catch some of the fouling that has been pushed into the breech.

Do use a cleaning method that also cleans the chamber even if you get a good clean jet of soapy water out. Do use a thin rust inhibiting lubricant such as Barricade to store the rifle and initially store the rifle muzzle down after cleaning.

 

[stewart.leach]

I have an Investarms rifle built from a Cabela's kit. Investarm builds the Lyman and Cabela's rifles. A few thoughts:

When cleaning after the day is done, I use a 35 caliber bore brush to get down into the patent breech reduced diameter area, followed by a patch wrapped around a 30 cal brush. It is surprising how much crud is on the patch.

In my range kit is a plastic bottle of denatured alcohol used to wet a couple of patches for swabbing to remove Barricade before loading the first round. A friend with a similar rifle goes farther, putting plastic tubing on the nipple and then putting a goodly squirt of alcohol down the barrel.

Nipples can become plugged. Soak in MAP, warm water and dish soap, Simple Green or whatever suits, then use a wire to clean from both ends.

I replaced the slotted "clean out screw" (really a leftover from the manufacturing process) with an Allen (hex) head screw. Though seldom removed, the screw comes out easily, perhaps due to generous use of anti-seize goop, which should also be used on nipples. The pipe cleaners with stiff bristles do a good job of cleaning the passage.

A good slap on the stock opposite the lock never hurts. Do be sure to observe Rule 1!

 

[bang]

I use a bottle filed with cleaning solution and put a hose on the nipple. If the hose leaks put a spring around it. Tight patch pump the solution through the nipple. The pressure gives crud no choice but to dissolve and come out. Last draw of patch I remove hose and pour out barrel full of solution just to check for chunks. Never is any.

 

[Carbon 6]

I always advise close inspection of your nipple. I have seen them rust or corrode from the intense flame around the flash hole, this "corrosion" grows and makes the flash hole smaller, reducing the flame, The second problem with this "corrosion is that it give a place for fouling to stick to.

Short of replacing your nipple often, it is good to know what the diameter of the flash hole should be. Or you can simply open it up with a tiny drill bit of proper size.

30-40 years ago I had some caps that would almost guarantee a misfire. I switched brands and the problem was gone. I think sometimes we take for granted the reliability and uniformity of the things we buy.

 

[Eric Krewson]

Store the rifle muzzle down after cleaning. I do this for my TC to let any accumulated oil migrate down the barrel instead of into the flash chamber.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Thanks to all who have helped with this post. My SIL, now with Christmas behind him decided to attack his gun for cleaning once again. Before this cleaning today, he did a is light shinning through check, and the gun failed. After vigorous cleaning and removing the clean out screw he finally got light to come through. He was not checking for light shine through prior as he did not know he had a major clog.
Flintlocklar

 

[rp77469]

I have a pair of Lyman GP in .54 and two CVA Mt. Rifles which have similar convoluted flame paths. I have not had ignition problems in decades not caused by overzealous oiling or greasing. I clean every hook breech rifle I have the same way at home. Pull the barrel, remove cleanout screw and nipple and toss them in the bucket of hot tap water with a squirt of Dawn (sometimes). Put a tight patch on the jag and piston up and down the barrel a whole bunch of times until clean. Change to clean hot water and rinse the barrel the same way. Drain the barrel then squirt some WD40 down the muzzle and through the clean out and nipple holes, drain for a minute or two. Blow out the WD40 with compressed air through the clean out hole. Run a dry patch to get anything still in the barrel, then lube. Clean out screw and nipple are lightly coated with never-seize and installed. Reassemble rifle, then store muzzle down in the safe with a plastic yogurt cup lid under the muzzle for drips. At the range, run a dry patch down the barrel, pop a cap or two. Pour the powder and always slap the lock with the nipple toward the ground. That hand slap puts the powder under the nipple and I do that every time with every percussion rifle. This procedure has worked for me for 35+ years once I finally figured it out.

At rendezvous, I try to follow this procedure without the air compressor, but sometimes it is not possible. I then clean with spit patches as well as possible, dry, remove the cleanout screw and clean with a pipe cleaner or a stick and blow down the barrel to clean the passageway. Lightly lube the barrel with patch grease, replace cleanout screw and nipple. Rub down the barrel and lock with the greasy patch and then save that. Pop a cap or two making sure the grass moves to show the passage from nipple to barrel is open. Fold the greasy patch into quarters, put it on the nipple and gently lower the hammer. You're done. Make sure that greasy patch is only slightly greasy. Too much plugs the nipple. DAMHIKT.

91% IPA is fully miscible with water if you have a thing about WD40. It is a lot healthier than denatured alcohol if you get it on you or breathe the vapor. I keep forgetting to take some to rendezvous to try sloshing it in the barrel instead of using damp patches, and never remember to try it at home either. It might do a better cleaning job, especially in the drum, than damp patches.

Hopefully something here will be of benefit, even if you just get a good laugh at my ideas. I am sure there are dozens of other ways to do this that also work. This one works for me.

 

[user 34300]

I have a friend who has given his two Lymans to me to solve this problem. I opened up and polished the flash channels. He is still having trouble. His is probably oiling and storing muzzle up. User error? 50% IMHO.

I have a side hammer where the nipple rests directly on the powder charge, 100% igniiton over many years. I have flinters with good locks and liners, 98% ignition. My side drum cap guns are pretty good. Chambered cap guns are problematical. It is just the nature of them. I would not use one for an important hunt. The chance of a first shot misfire is just to great. For target shooting it is not a big deal.

 

[Carbon 6]

Thanks to all who have helped with this post. My SIL, now with Christmas behind him decided to attack his gun for cleaning once again. Before this cleaning today, he did a is light shinning through check, and the gun failed. After vigorous cleaning and removing the clean out screw he finally got light to come through. He was not checking for light shine through prior as he did not know he had a major clog.
Flintlocklar

Muzzleloading is like brewing, it's 95% cleaning, 5% fun.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thanks to all who have helped with this post. My SIL, now with Christmas behind him decided to attack his gun for cleaning once again. Before this cleaning today, he did a is light shinning through check, and the gun failed. After vigorous cleaning and removing the clean out screw he finally got light to come through. He was not checking for light shine through prior as he did not know he had a major clog.
Flintlocklar

It doesn't take a very big hole through a hard clog to allow cleaning water to race through but not dislodge the clog.

 

[Carbon 6]

It doesn't take a very big hole through a hard clog to allow cleaning water to race through but not dislodge the clog.

Another big problem is the notion that popping caps burns out all the oil in the breech.
IT DOESN'T.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Used guitar strings make great probes.
SM

 

[ravenousfishing]

If he is taking the time to take the barrel off for cleaning, it only takes a few extra seconds to take the nipple off and drop it in a cup of soapy water. This lets a much larger stream of water flow through the breach, helping remove any fouling. By the time the barrel is clean, the nipple is usually clean enough that you only need to blow out the water and hold up to a light to make sure the flash hole is clear. If needed, a pipe cleaner does the job.

 

[Zonie]

I agree that removing the nipple when cleaning a gun is a good idea.
With the restrictive nipple out of the way, if you use the "breech in a bucket of water method" and pump the cleaning jag/patch/rod up and down, the open passageway allows a huge amount of water to be pulled into and out of the flame channel.
That blasts away any fouling that has deposited itself in that little flame channel hole and can greatly improve the reliability of the gun, especially on the modern "patent breech" guns.