"Sort of" period looking scope options

[user 48702]

Some of the Confederate sharp shooters Whitworth rifles were equipped with Malcolm scopes. I found this account of General Cleburne borrowing a tube scope to view enemy fortifications since he had left his field glasses behind.

We were from a half to a mile in advance, and ran great risk of being captured. We soon advanced to the top of a high, rocky hill about a thousand or twelve hundred yards south of Franklin and on the west of the turnpike, which is known as Merrill's or Murrell's Hill. Here we had a fine view of the Federal works and the open field in front of them, but not a Federal could be seen. While waiting Gen. Pat Cleburne rode up to where we were standing and remarked that he had left his field glass behind and that he wished the use of a telescope. Lieutenant Ozanne (who always carried the gun of the man left with the mule and camp equipage) quickly detached the long telescope from his gun, adjusted the focus, and handed it to General Cleburne, who laid the telescope across a stump and looked long and carefully over the field, and remarked, "They have three lines of works," and then, sweeping the field again as if to make himself certain, said. "And they are all completed." He then returned the telescope, thanked Lieutenant Ozanne for its use, and with kindling eye and rapid movement mounted his horse and rode rapidly back to where his division was forming.

Confederate Veteran

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Are the Malcolm style made by Hi-lux any good? I have a Williams peep sight that I'm going to try, but it won't mount close enough to really be right. Thinking with my eyes I might need a scope to keep shooting.

And yes I know, people here hate scopes, not forcing you to use them so please be considerate for those of us that want or need one. Not everyone wants to be 100% period correct, some of us just enjoy shooting, and don't want an inline because it just doesn't fit what they want.

Folks hate them because they are ignorant of the fact scopes have been used since the 1840's.

 

[French Colonial]

I've also read of what are called tube sights that you could make yourself if you're handy. Maybe someone here can add to what little I know about them but I think what they are is just a tube with a crosshair or post mounted inside towards the front of the tube. They give a better sight picture without any magnification.

Also, if you just want to see how well a rifle shoots you can JB Weld scope mounts to the barrel and with a little heat remove them later with no screw holes or damage to the barrel.

I did this one time with a BPCR rifle "Just to see" worked surprisingly well, eventually the barrel heating and cooling from firing loosened it but I had put several down range at that time.

 

[TFoley]

The one on the sharps is good to 300 yards, As to agreeing not so, perhaps you needed to send it back where you bought it from, may have been a manfacturing issue. I am very pleased with mine.

It did go back and got replaced by a real Winchester A-5 scope which, for around $1500, was at least the real thing, and not a modern-day frawk.

 

[TFoley]

Some of the Confederate sharp shooters Whitworth rifles were equipped with Malcolm scopes. I found this account of General Cleburne borrowing a tube scope to view enemy fortifications since he had left his field glasses behind.

We were from a half to a mile in advance, and ran great risk of being captured. We soon advanced to the top of a high, rocky hill about a thousand or twelve hundred yards south of Franklin and on the west of the turnpike, which is known as Merrill's or Murrell's Hill. Here we had a fine view of the Federal works and the open field in front of them, but not a Federal could be seen. While waiting Gen. Pat Cleburne rode up to where we were standing and remarked that he had left his field glass behind and that he wished the use of a telescope. Lieutenant Ozanne (who always carried the gun of the man left with the mule and camp equipage) quickly detached the long telescope from his gun, adjusted the focus, and handed it to General Cleburne, who laid the telescope across a stump and looked long and carefully over the field, and remarked, "They have three lines of works," and then, sweeping the field again as if to make himself certain, said. "And they are all completed." He then returned the telescope, thanked Lieutenant Ozanne for its use, and with kindling eye and rapid movement mounted his horse and rode rapidly back to where his division was forming.

Confederate Veteran

The Whitworth rifles used by the CSA sharpshooters were fitted with Colonel Davidson scopes, but perhaps the Tryon rifles used by both sides may have had Malcolm scopes.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ok, I’ll bite. Why?

Folks,

Is Flintandsteel asking "why use a scope", or "why the need for it to look antique-ish"? I thought he was asking the latter, but some of the responses seem to indicate they thought it was the former.

As for "traditional", our rules pertain mostly to the guns themselves, not so much to accessories, as the rules are written. There is no rule, for example, that we must run the risk of wounding an animal instead of a humane kill, because we shouldn't spoil the aesthetics of our traditional rifle when hunting, and thus use open sights when we need some sort of optic, or must drop huge coin for a repro optic or go without.

BTW the first rifle fitted with an optic sight using cross hairs was done in 1776..., but the optics maker didn't understand parallax and the guy trying to mount the scope got smacked in his shooting eye due to recoil and the scope being sooo close to the eye, he was worried he'd lose sight in that eye...



LD

 

[pmccoywss]

Are the Malcolm style made by Hi-lux any good?

I am very satisfied with mine. Six power, about 15-18" long. I shoot it from 50' (all Winter) to 161 yards (at Summer mini-quigley match). Have shot it to 200 yards testing loads. It does not have "clicks" in the adjustments, but is repeatable for adjustments (you just have to be careful to lock the adjustment down after making a change).

 

[Barry Strickland]

I will jump in with my experience here. In the early 1970's I was really into the NMLRA buffalo matches. I was doing well with my 10 1/2 pound offhand rifle but wanted a rifle that went up to the 14 pound limit with a longer barrel.
I had Hoppy Hopkins cut me a 1 1/8" barrel with a false muzzle which I mounted to a H&A underhammer action. I obtained a nice piece of birdseye maple from Fajen to make the stock out of.
I decided I wanted to make a full length tube sight for the rifle. I had an old scope that had external mounts I could salvage for mounting a tube. I was first thinking of using copper pipe for the tube but found it would put me slightly overweight.
One evening I was sitting contemplating this problem while gazing out the window when I noticed the curtain hanger tube above the window, hmmm!
Alas, it did not take long for my wife noticed the curtain was now stapled to the wall instead of hanging there. I just don't understand how she can get so picky about some things.
As it ended up I was just under the weight limit and the tube sight worked really well except for one unforseen problem.
Trying to carefully lean the rifle against a bench was a real pain in the posterior. The tube was like a sore thumb banging around when trying to load or clean the barrel. It did not take long before I went to conventional peep and globe sights.
And that woman of mine will remind me of every little "technical glitch" I might of made in our 58 years of marriage. She has a memory like an elephant besides being the meanest woman on the planet. I swear she could go bear huntin' with a switch.

 

[brownac1983]

To elaborate on the original question, here's my train of thought... it's not so much a question of whether or not to install a scope, I have a Lyman trade rifle with a modern scope already on it. The scope works fine, but in my opinion it looks weird and out of place on the rifle. So it's a question of whether to remove the mount and plug the holes, or install a scope that, while it might not be actually "period", will fit the lines of the rifle a little better.

This is what I have:

This is what I'm thinking about:

In no way is it going to be original or authentic, but I think it would look better on the gun.

 

[TFoley]

From a painting by W Homer Esq. - an illustration of a Confederate sharpshooter, often cited...

 

[TFoley]

I'm thinking that one or other of these might suit a percussion rifle - they are Mossberg for Montgomery Ward, around a hundred years ago.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I did this one time with a BPCR rifle "Just to see" worked surprisingly well, eventually the barrel heating and cooling from firing loosened it but I had put several down range at that time.

Tube sights were used when scopes weren't allowed. Unertl used to make tube sights, and I have a brass one that came on antique target rifle: they work well.

 

[Greg_E]

I'll look into tube sights first, might be something I can make and might do what I need.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Folks,

Is Flintandsteel asking "why use a scope", or "why the need for it to look antique-ish"? I thought he was asking the latter, but some of the responses seem to indicate they thought it was the former.

As for "traditional", our rules pertain mostly to the guns themselves, not so much to accessories, as the rules are written. There is no rule, for example, that we must run the risk of wounding an animal instead of a humane kill, because we shouldn't spoil the aesthetics of our traditional rifle when hunting, and thus use open sights when we need some sort of optic, or must drop huge coin for a repro optic or go without.

BTW the first rifle fitted with an optic sight using cross hairs was done in 1776..., but the optics maker didn't understand parallax and the guy trying to mount the scope got smacked in his shooting eye due to recoil and the scope being sooo close to the eye, he was worried he'd lose sight in that eye...



LD

I never heard of a telescopic sight made in 1776: do you know who or where it was made? When scopes were fitted to to target rifles after 1840 the danger of eye injury was very real especially as the rifles got larger and more powerful.

 

[user 48702]

I saw this article a short time back. If I was going to scope one, it would be hard to beat this setup.

Scoping The Traditional Side Hammer Muzzleloader

 

[TFoley]

I never heard of a telescopic sight made in 1776: do you know who or where it was made? When scopes were fitted to to target rifles after 1840 the danger of eye injury was very real especially as the rifles got larger and more powerful.

The first telescopic rifle sight was made in 1776 by Charles Wilson Peale, however his model proved unworkable as recoil forced the sight back into the shooter’s eye. The first successful attempt to combine telescopic technology with a rifle is attributed to Morgan James, of Utica, NY, during the 1830s.

John R Chapman documented James’ work in his 1844 book The Improved American Rifle and would go on to collaborate with James, resulting in the production of the Chapman-James sight. In 1855 William Malcolm, of Syracuse, NY, began production of a new model of sight which utilised achromatic lenses and numerous other improvements. His model remains the ancestor of the modern rifle scope.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Thanks! I have never heard of the Peale effort. I have fired rifles with scopes made by Morgan James, and examined the first internally adjustable scope he made and fitted to a Model 1841 rifle along with a barrel of his own make: this is the rifle pictured in Ned Roberts' book. Wm. Malcom is the best known and most prolific but various others made scopes: a couple of them were Riley Haskell (of fishing lure fame) from Painesville OH and Ralsa Rice from Warren OH, a noted rifle builder and competitor.

No one was able overcome the recoil hazard until return to battery scopes were invented. This is a favorite rifle of mine built in 1885: note the eye relief and recoil when fired.

Folks would do well to read Chapman's book.

 

[dehart.stephen]

The "cheap" brass Tasco 4x sxopenfrom theb1970's can be used to good effect ifnyoubput then in a decent mount. I glued a rib on mine, and used some Unertl extrnally adjustable moints. Then the front lens loosened, and wrapping the threads on that seemed to fix it just fine. There's even a pretty easy way to add stadia lines for judging range in those scopes.

 

[TFoley]

The "cheap" brass Tasco 4x sxopenfrom theb1970's can be used to good effect ifnyoubput then in a decent mount. I glued a rib on mine, and used some Unertl extrnally adjustable moints. Then the front lens loosened, and wrapping the threads on that seemed to fix it just fine. There's even a pretty easy way to add stadia lines for judging range in those scopes.

Pictures please - I have a couple of Tasco Model 707 scopes on two unmentionable rifles, and a Unertl on yet another, but I don't recall seeing the scope that you describe...

 

[leadhoarder]

I am all for using open sights but you got to be real with yourself and if your eyes reach a certain point go ahead and do whatever it takes to keep shooting. Heck I would put one of the newer small red dots on one of it kept your shooting. They are so small they may not be noticed from a casual glance.