Spanish/ Mexican Escopetas

[Big Yehudah]

Hi everyone. I want to know how exactly an Escopeta, which is i think equivalent to a blunderbus (but i'm not certain) works. You can cram "anything you want" in one according to a few books I've read. Can you use it as a normal muzzle loading carbine as well as a shotgun?

THis is my point of reference. http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museu...et/francisco-targarona-miquelet-escopeta.aspx

How effective, particularly during the Mexican War, would a escopeta be, using it in all of it's capacity(s)>

 

[Alden]

Why would an Escopeta's miquelet lock be significantly worse than other flintlock's?

 

[mhb]

The Mexican (Spanish derived) escopeta should be thought of as a light, smoothbore musket or carbine, rather than any form of shotgun, per-se.
Such arms are as effective as any similar, contemporary smoothbore of comparable caliber, and were commonly used with round ball ammunition, though they could be loaded with shot as well.
There is no connotation of being anything like a blunderbuss.
In later years, the term came to be used for shotguns (being smoothbores).
The use of such arms in the Mexican war was appropriate, as most of the U.S. expedition was armed with smoothbore muskets, and many of the Mexican troops were armed with true European muskets, like the Brown Bess.

mhb - Mike

 

[Big Yehudah]

No no no...i'm not in anyway criticizing the miquelet lock. Its a great lock which makes it so you can use different sizes of flint. What i am asking is, in a combat situation, how would an escopeta be used? Was it used as a carbine as well as a shotgun? What would the spread/ range of buck or buck and ball be? Stuff like that.

 

[Big Yehudah]

Are you sure? Could you provide references? Articles and books I've read about the Mexican American war describe the Escopeta in most cases as a shot gun.

EDIT:
Here check this link:
https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/qve01

 

[satx78247]

I'm sure that as early as 1819 (when my father's side of the family arrived in TX) & at least as late as the Mexican War that "the typical Mexican soldado" was armed with a British-surplus Brown Bess.
(This is NOT to say that there were not other sorts of weapons in the Mexican military formations. - In particular, senior NCOs, "specialty troops", foreign mercenaries and officers often bought or were issued "other weapons".)

I've seen NO period documents that indicate that "blunderbusses" were EVER "government issue" to Mexican federal forces OR that "escopeta" ever meant "blunderbuss".

yours, satx

 

[Big Yehudah]

Thanks. I did know that Mexico began purchases large numbers of India Pattern muskets ( THe pattern adopted during the Napoleonic wars and developed by the east india company) but Escopetas WERE extremely popular and the most commonly used weapon for cavalry. It seems you guys are right. THe Escopeta is not a blunderbuss. BUT, Mexican cavalry tended to use shot more than ball with them. This is what has caused them to be referred to as shot guns on the internet and in some books.

So i'd like to modify my question... What would be the range and accuracy of of a late 18th to Mexican war escopeta? How long does it take to reload one? Since they are essentially muzzle loading carbines, other carbines (smoothbore) could be used as a point of reference.

 

[Alden]

Yehudah;
New to guns in general I suspect?

Loading buckshot would probably take a little longer than a single patched ball however they were doing it, though, I haven't confirmed that they were offhand...

Today, beyond 25 meters a full buckshot load would be less effective than a single projectile. This distance would’ve been shorter with lower 18th C. and 19th C. velocities. Buckshot has lost about 70% of its kinetic energy at 35 meters.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The easiest way to think of "escopeta", as the Spanish used them would be to make the association with a cavalry carbine (and yes, "carbine" is a tough term to pin down too). Most Spanish versions had barrels in the 26" to 33" range (most surviving pieces seem to run toward the longer) and were generally around .69" bores with migulet locks and were usually colonial made or used pieces, rather than guns made for use in Spain. Even works like "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America: 1700-1821" seem a bit vague on where to draw the line and decided to define "escopeta" as a "Light musket, fowling piece". Basically, you can say light, smooth bore, colonial fowler and be fairly correct! :wink:

Even the "cuera" dragoons carried them as part of their horse gear and since their name meant "leather" and the horses and troopers were both hanging with solid leather or quilted protection from mesquite thorns, it was quite a load. Escopetas hung around a long time and a short flint version is illustrated in one of Don Troiani's books. It's a short barreled cavalry type captured at Churubusco, during the Mexican-American War 1846-1848 and given to Capt. John Henry Jackson in 1847.

 

[mhb]

I think there is still some confusion about the name, itself.
Escopeta, in modern Spanish, is a shotgun.
The type under discussion, which was used by Mexican irregular cavalry, and often as individual arms by Mexican officers, filled the role of a carbine.
I have no information that shot was more commonly used by Mexicans armed with escopetas, but am aware that at contemporary engagement ranges, buckshot or buck-and-ball is very effective.
If the Mexicans who used the type were provided with paper cartridges (or made them themselves), they would have been able to load and fire perhaps 2-3 rounds per minute, when on foot, fewer when mounted. Lack of prepared cartridges would have slowed loading, particularly with loose shot of any sort.
But, truthfully, I've never seen any historical records which address the specific questions you've posed.
What line of inquiry lead you to the escopeta's role in the Mexican War?

mhb - Mike

 

[Wes/Tex]

Militarily speaking, escopetas would be more in the hands of the local presidio-based units guarding the northern frontier running from eastern Texas to California, real "Spanish" regular cavalry units being in extremely limited supply. Since firearms were always in short supply in New Spain, it appears likely that escopetas were in wider use than issue cavalry carbines here in North America. Since most of the "cuera" dragoons appear to have worn the 9 shot cartridge box, it appears big piles of back-up rounds weren't carried. They tended toward the lance over firearms it now appears. From what research I've done, it looks like the arms race on the North American frontier stopped with the Spanish quitting at 9 foot lances while some Comanche versions went all the way to 16 feet long and had to be a real bear to handle on horseback!

 

[satx78247]

By the time of the TX Revolution & for a LONG time after (One of the "soldier boys" from my family went off to defend the CSA in 1861 with a Bess that his father bought him. - That BB is mentioned in a "letter home" that my cousin Beverly has.) a Brown Bess was commonplace & CHEAP to buy all over the USA & into Mexico for militia use/hunting for several DECADES.
(I wouldn't be afraid to fire on ANY game on the North American continent with a Bess, with a proper load of BP and a PRB that fits the bore out OR a load of suitable shot to 50M. = As I've said elsewhere, a member of our archery club has taken MANY deer/exotics/small game with his replica BB. - David does "culling" for a large ranch in South TX)

yours, satx

 

[curator]

Seventeenth century Spanish colonials in Florida used the term "escopeta" to distinguish the lighter smooth bore gun from the military-issue musket. They were "non-standard" mostly commercially made, and could also be smaller caliber. Some of the ones I have examined with Florida provenance were 32, 28, and 20 bore (.52, .54, and .62 caliber) Some were 14 bore (.69 caliber) and could have been loaded with the typical military charge. I have never encountered a rifled miquelet-lock long gun that had a Florida connection. Certainly in military bore, an escopeta would be as effective as a US 1795, or French Charleville 1777 musket.

 

[Patocazador]

When I was duck hunting in Mexico, all shotguns were called escopetas by the guides and beaters.