For some reason the first part of the link will not post correctly...perhaps because it's from another ML site.
In any event, here's what a fella posted about the good 'ol RB.
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Well this is not going to please anyone trying to sell "new and improved" but the absolute BEST killers I have ever used from Muzzleloaders have been ROUND BALLS.
I was the CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Company for a while, and I was also the head ballistician there for years. I have used a LOT of those bullets as well as all the competitors’ offerings in many many tests.
For muzzleloaders of 50 caliber to 58 caliber and larger I have never seen any bullets that killed better out to about 150 yards than the old fashioned BALLS.
In muzzleloaders of 62 caliber and up, there were no other offerings anyway, but I did use cast bullets of our own manufacture in 62 and 66 cal as well as 12 bore (72 cal) and they were all very good, but honestly none were better than balls.
Those that are in marketing will scream at this, but it's the honest truth.
(We should all go back to our childhood days and re-read the story of the Emperors New Cloths. That's what 99.9% of the "new and improved muzzleloading gizmos" are based in these days.)
When you finish that story, read The Sporting Rifle and it’s Projectiles by James Forsyth, from 1863. Bullets are not “new”.
Read every word and read carefully.
While I would not say I am the “foremost authority” on the subject, I would say I know a great deal about it.
My background includes shooting and hunting with muzzleloader in 1971, and I have killed a lot of game, from rabbits to moose with them. I am fairly well known within the muzzleloading field, and have the attention of many shooters in both the target and hunting interests.
My guns are well known all over the world and I don’t get many complaints about my work, or my advice in the use of the guns I make.
Here are some to look at.
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...erican guns/
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...hurch rifle/
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...German guns/
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...nglish guns/
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ie Harrison/
http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/szihn/pistols/
I also was the CEO of a bullet company, (See my post above) and we made enough bullets to need 60-100 TONS of lead alloy a month. We made bullets by the hundreds of thousands and over a few years time, by millions.
I was responsible for probably about 80% of all the tests done with our bullets, and about 70% of all the tests done with our competitor’s bullets. I did that for several years.
We made a line of 45 caliber bullets for sabots to use in muzzleloaders of 50 and 54 cal. I did the work on them from drawing board to marketing.
So I know a lot about shooting modern bullets in muzzleloaders and I have a LOT of information on kills made with them over many years in many countries and on 5 continents. Not just deer and deer sized game. I am talking about animals from 50 pound antelope to 8,000 pound elephants.
If I count only the muzzleloader kills I have made, and the ones that were made while I watched, the number will be around 100. If I count the ones that were shown to me on video, and those that were mailed in to my office in letter form, the count would be many times more.
We made high-performance bullets for hunting with handguns and some rifles too.
So I can say without reservation, I know a LOT about this subject.
If you are shooting a round ball rifle in 45 caliber, and you compare that performance to a sabot-patched 45 cal revolver bullet at the same speed (about 1800 FPS was common for best accuracy, but some rifles will go a little faster) the 45 bullet will out perform the ball. That's 100% true.
In a 50 cal rifle made for bullet shooting (1-22 twist) compared to a 50 cal ball rifle, the performance of the two is pretty close on game. The 45 bullet from the sabot driven 50 cal rifle bore is usually a bit slower out of the muzzle, but the bullet retains velocity better than the ball, so again the bullet does a bit better, but not as much as you might think when you really see the kills (Not 5-10 kills either. I am talking about many hundreds, so the comparison has some real substance to it)
When you compare the 54 caliber balls to the 45 cal revolver bullets the performance is in favor of the balls as a rule.
In 58 cal the balls kill notably faster. In watching several buffalo shot with 58 cal rifles I have seen this myself. 45 cal revolver bullets don’t come close to 58 cal balls in most cases.
In 62, 66, 69 and 72 cals there is no comparison. The bullets don’t even come close.
In fact, my old 50-140 Sharps firing 650 grain bullets was not even close to as good a killer as a good 12 bore ball gun on ANY animal, from planes game to elephants. And the 50-140 shot a real rifle bullet, not a pistol bullet.
Yes I know, the 50-140 is not a muzzleloader, but a 650 grain .512” bullet at 1450 FPS is very formidable, and yet a 66 cal 430 grain ball at 1850 was better by far at killing game.
In the fields of Africa the 8 bore BALL gun is still far ahead of the 45 or 50 cal muzzleloading bullet rifles in their overall effectiveness, even though it’s been considered obsolete for over 100 years. You need 45 cal smokeless breach loaders shooting 500 grain bullets at about 2000 fps to get near the effectiveness of an 8 bore. (In other words, a 450 Nitro or a 458 Winchester)
We got thousands of letters every year from all over the world telling of results from hunters shooting our bullets from revolvers, from 32 all the way up to 454 Casulls, and also from 45-70s 45-90s 45-120s, 458 Winchesters and so on. Our bullets were VERY well spoken of.
But when it comes to killing game with muzzleloaders I can tell you faithfully, at ranges of 200 yards and less from muzzleloaders, in guns of 54 caliber and larger, overall nothing beat a hard round ball in killing game.
I sincerely wish it had been different because I was making a lot of money for my company on the products I made and designed, but in the field of hunting and killing game with front-stuffers, nothing ever beat the round ball for overall performance.
The long 40, 44 and 45 cal bullets (that means rifle bullets! Not revolver bullets) shoot better at long range. “Long” being over 200 yards.
A good hit with any 370 to 550 grain bullet is better than a poor hit (or miss ) with any bullet. That’s true,-- but at regular ranges for hunting, 200 yards and closer, the .54 and bigger ball kill better than the bullets.
You see, at 1800 FPS the HP bullets will expand and they do so, down to about 1100 FPS. When they do, they become about 54 caliber. If they leave the muzzle at even 2000 FPS it may impress you, but you need to look at the velocity of the bullet on impact and just an inch after impact.
At 150 yards it’s going about 1100 FPS. The Ball comes out the barrel at about the same speed as the bullet. The most common muzzle velocity for patched round balls is about 1850 for good accuracy. Faster is not accurate in most cases.
The ball sheds velocity even faster than the bullet, but a 54 cal ball hits at 54 caliber and if it doesn’t expand at all, it’s as big around as your best HP revolver bullets when it expands. If the 54 cal ball does expand, it’s bigger around than your best 45 cal hollow point will get.
If the ball is cast hard (only about 14 BN is good enough) it will not expand much but it doesn’t need to.
Another myth is that you should only use pure lead for your patched round balls. Not so. Pure lead balls do not penetrate much better then a jacketed hollow point revolver bullet, and in a few cases, not as well.
But cast from 12-14 BN alloy, they out penetrate any hollow point revolver bullet or soft point revolver bullet I have ever tested, and they do it by over 2X.
Another thing that most hunters are unaware of is the fact (which is a FACT) is an expanding revolver bullet striking flesh at 1500 FPS slows down to only about 750 FPS in it’s first 1-2 inches of penetration. That energy is converted into the expanding of the cavity to make it come up to about 9/16inch. (which is about 54 cal incidentally)
Now when you start to look at the 58 caliber 14 BN balls (really, 562 to 575”) the revolver bullets can’t compare. Yes they will shoot a bit flatter, but they don’t kill as well.
Again, I wish that it was not true, because I would have made more money, but I can’t wish the facts into changing. These are the facts.
Just to illustrate---- I hunt with a 62 cal flintlock. I have killed 4 moose in my life.
One with a 348 Winchester. 1 shot. Moose went about 30 yards and fell and the bullet was against the ribs on the off-side.
Two moose with 375H&H. Both stayed on their feet for about 10-15 seconds. One was shot a second time. Neither moose kept a bullet in the body.
The last one was with my 62 cal flintlock. One shot, moose hit the ground before the recoil was over. The ball broke both upper shoulder bones and went off through the trees on the other side.
Now I am sure a double shoulder break would have done just as well if I’d have done it with a 375, or a 338 or a 30-06, or a 454 Casull, but I can tell you the likelihood of that happening with a jacketed 45 cal revolver bullet is very slim. A good hard cast revolver can do it, but I know of no hollow points that can do this and still exit a 1600 pound bull moose and keep going.
In my life I have hunted and killed game with muzzleloaders firing 50 cal balls, 54 cal balls, 58 cal balls, 58 cal R.E.A.L bullets, 58 caliber Minie bullets, 45 cal bullets from 400 to 550 grains in my Rigby style rifle, 62 cal balls and 62 cal bullets (900 grains) In addition to these muzzleloading kills, I have seen many many others, ranging from 45 cal flintlocks to 8 bore rifles. What I am writing here is not a repeat of something I read. It’s all from real-world experience, mine and my customers and clients.
So, to come back to the original question about what is “best” ----I have to dogmatically say, the patched round ball is still the best overall for hunting.
Bullets fly better. But they don’t kill as well. (unless you are comparing them to 45 cal balls.) In comparing a 50 cal ball to a 45 cal HP revolver bullet, it’s pretty close. The bullet may edge out the ball by a small margin, but that’s a “maybe”. I have not seen any dramatic advantage of such bullet over the 50 cal balls, but to be honest they were not a lot worse either.
In comparing a 54 cal ball to a 45 cal HP Revolver bullet the bullet will do as well out to about 75 yards and after that the ball will kill better, all other things being equal.
If we look at a 58, 62 66, 69 or 72 cal balls there is NO 45 revolver bullet that can even come close to killing as well.
Many who have the experience of reading advertisements, and might have even killed 1-10 deer might disagree.
But as I said, I have a lot of real knowledge in this area, and I don’t just believe what I am saying here. I know!
If I were wrong, I would have made a lot more money. I wish this was wrong, but it's not!
I AM NOT SAYING that the modern HP and soft nose bullets are BAD!
I am saying as a rule they are not better.
Not much has changed.
As I said in my first post,
You gents need to read Forsyth's book. He killed more animals in 1 year then any of us will kill in a lifetime, and he did use both bullet rifles and ball rifles.
He is 100% dogmatic in his stand.
