special barrel for heavyshot

[ffffg]

im considering building a 10 gauge flintlock built for heavy shot, it would be solely used for geese... bismuth just dont pack it in my experience.. our geese are huge here.. anyway, i could just shoot heavyshot and replace the barrel every so many years, or chrome plate it, or do some kind of coating?.. the biggest problem would be choke.. i believe a jug choke would be out, as all the wear would occure at the constricton point.. anyone experienced with chrome lined bores and heavyshot.?? a hardened type contrictive choke could work fine expecially in a 10 guage as the wads will bend (fold slightly) easily... shotcups will not open with bp velocities, especially the ones thick enough for steel. they also are worse in very cold weather, making them tougher yet.. . so i cant even consider them... dave...

 

[clayman49]

Hi Dave, I live in New Zealand and have been shooting BP shotguns for many years on both clay targets and waterfowl. I've used single and double perc shotguns and resently (last five years) started to use flint and am about to build a double flinter. I've used nothing bigger than 12g with lots of success. I use 1 1/4 oz BB and same volume of fffg bp, no shot cups, but a fibre or waxed felt wad in between two thick cards (plus over shot card) thats on canadian geese and WITH NO CHOKE. Take a look at Pedersoli shotguns, their singles are heavy (they shoot round ball too), but the doubles are not. So don't go over board with heavy barrels and chokes.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm unfamiliar with the term "heavy shot"....steel?
Why not have ed rayle make one out of modern barrel steel? You could probably even get away with some jug with the right kind of barrel steel. I'd give him a call and see what he thinks.

 

[Hoyt]

Since Heavishot requires a special steel for even modern shotgun barrel chokes..I'd be learry of any type of choke until I got some good reliable info on it.
I would contact these people and ask what they think.. comp-n-choke

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't understand your comment that shot cups won't open at black powder velocities. Modern loads are " Dram Equivalent ", meaning that if you were to load the same number of Drams of Black Powder, you would get the same velocity that the modern load is giving. Shotcup DO CERTAINLY open up when shot over black powder.

If you are going to use Heavy Shot, or any of the other non-toxic shot, you will want to use the correct plastic shot cup with the shot to protect any barrel. However, the suggestion to contact a barrel maker about making a barrel of the correct steel for this kind of load is the best advise you have been given. And, he can talk about jug choke, or screw in chokes, etc.

Personally, I would have a hard time justifying a shotgun that is only used to shoot Geese, unless you get a lot of Snow, and Blue Geese flying down you neck of the woods. The Federal Bag limits on Canada geese have been 2 per day, while the limit on Snows, and Blues is up to 15 per day. Many people don't like eathing Snows, and Blues, however. I also don't think you need a 10 gauge shotgun to take the geese. All you get is a much heavier gun to tote around, a lot more recoil, and more cost for each shot fired. A strong 12 bore can be loaded heavy, and will take geese as far away as your shot will pattern well, using heavy shot.

The real problem is that most shooters can't estimate range properly, and sky bust all the time scaring the geese away from other hunters who actually can tell the difference between 40 and 120 yds! I am sure you don't fall in the first category, but if you have hunted much at all, you have met guys that can wear those boots quite well.

 

[pmwest]

Theoretically the jug choke is ideal for shooting the tough non-toxics, much better than standard constrictions. The main problem with Hevi-shot is that it is much tougher (harder) than common barrel steel. It is very irregular in shape when compared to lead or steel. The tendency is for the shot to leave scoring in the barrel. One advantage that muzzleloaders have over modern guns is the lack of a forcing cone just ahead of the chamber. This area in modern guns is the most vulnerable to scoring. It is my opinion that using Hevi-shot requires the use of protective shot cups designed specifically for that use. With a little range work you should be able to develop an excellent load for your purpose.

Although written for shotshell reloaders, this is an excellent reference on the subject:

Reloading Hevi-shot

 

[clayman49]

Hi there again, there are many valid comments being made here and some not! But PLEASE PLEASE remember black powder is ONLY measured by volume. I use the same volume of powder as the shot and I use 1 1/4OZ; any more powder will distort your patern. Now re shot cups, it's not recomended to use modern reloading cups as BP tends to melt the plastic (I know I've had a sticky barrel from it), but if there are shot cups arround for BP use them. I have trialed card board cut out cups (these were in the shape of the German Iron Cross) but I gave up on these as I found them tedious and time consuming to load. Good luck with your shooting.

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR, use an over powder card wad between the powder charge and that plastic shotcup and the problem of melting plastic is over. This is a muzzle loading shotgun. Any concept involving " speed loading " the gun is rediculous. If you have to have lots of shots, then take along a Semi-auto shotgun in whatever gauge floats your boat.

YOu can pretend to be hunting african game with a gun bearer. I am assuming that migratory birds will be hunted out of a blind. It would not be the first time that someone took two shotguns to his blind with him, so he only had to grab up the second gun to continue shooting.

Dram measure is a VOLUME measure, that just happens to weigh about 27.5 grains in weight. The fact that modern powders are measured in grains is irrelevant. Every box of commercially sold shotgun shells states a " Dram Equivalent " load on the box, to guide the consumer's purchase. Depending on Gauge, they will run from 1.5 drams to 4 drams equivalence. Most 12 gauge shells run from 2 3/4 dr. equ. to 3 1/4 dr. equ. The newer 3 1/2 inches hulls will sometimes show 3 1/2 dr. equ. The 10 gauge shells are where you start seeing 4 dr. equ. loads.

You can achieve similar velocities if you can load that much black powder, using Dram measures , in the hulls. In the longer hulls, that usually is no problem to do.

 

[ffffg]

thanks Hoyt ill give them a call.... and yes Mike illbet hell be up for a challange but it will be quite an effort.. for those who wont give up shot cups, a plastic shot cup desined for 1500 fps will not open at 1050 fps in cold weather, ...... paper shot cups with a slitted system is a possibilty,,but it will break open in the jug, so a constrictive choke would be needed with that.. improved cylinder would probablybe fine. ... we in the usa cannot use lead.. bismuth is a 20 percent loss in density over lead (aprox),,bismuth max size is bb or it would probably work with larger shot.. heavy shot is a 10-20 percent gain over the density of lead (aprox)... any shotgunner with limited velocity can realize the improtance of this fact.. modern shotgunners are getting compete pass thrus on ducks with number 7 heavy shot.. similar results have been reported with 5 heavyshot on geese.. but thats at 1500fps aprox.. i just want a load that will kill huge local geese, these things look like coyotes with wings,, at 30 yards..1050 fps and 1n 3/8 oz bb bismuth just dont seem to be able to do it efficently.. 10ga with 1050 fps and 1 3/8 oz heavy shot in the right size would probably be quite leathal.. i have no trouble with ducks and number 4 bismuth in late winter with black powder out to 35-40 yards... velocity is not variable, bigger bismuth is not availible,, denser shot (heavy shot) is available.. .. thanks for your help.. dave..

 

Two thoughts that come to mind are first that Hevi shot is harder than even steel or tungston shot, and heavier, and denser than lead. So you will have to work up your own loads. can you say expensive at $130 for a 7 pound jar from Ballistic Products. It's the most expensive shot out there. My second thought is that a number of guys are using dime paper wrappers to make shot cups, and penny wrappers might just work for a 10 gauge.

Bill

I started with nothing, and still have most of it left!

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you slit those plastic shotcups sold by Ballistics products, they will open at the slower velocity. You can also return to using standard shotcups, if your ML shotgun is of a similar gauge as modern shotguns are chambered. As for the petals opening, or breaking, you can use scotch tape around the outside of the cup, to close the bottom half of the slits, so they survive the journey through the barrel, and jug choke, but don't stop the petals from opening and releasing the shot. You will have to play around with your load a bit to find out what a given amount of closing the petals with tape does to your patterns, then set up a small jig to allow you to tape each of the shotcups in the same place.

Finally, I am assuming that you are staying at 1050 fps in your load because you want to stay below the speed of sound. You certainly can shoot the shot out the barrel at 1200-1500 fps. if you load it that way. Even reducing the amount of shot you are shooting, from 1 3/8 oz. to 1 1/4 oz. will increase the velocity of your current load.

I think the secret is using a large enough diameter of shot to retain down range energy for the range you are likely to hit those geese, and then find a load that will pattern that shot the best at that range. Since almost all the over-1100fps velocity is lost in the first 20 yards, and that extra speed tends to open patterns, it makes sense to stay below the speed of sound for better pattern density. If you don't want to consider jug choking your gun, then by all means try some of my suggestions here, to get the shotcups to open, and give you the kind of pattern performance you desire.

If you are unsure at how much energy your pattern leaves at certain distances, do some penetration testing. Several posts here have talked about using real tin( coated steel ) cans, rather than aluminum beveral cans, for testing shot loads at range. If the shot penetrates both sides of a vegetable can, its going to go through a goose's neck at that range.

 

[Todd Rickard]

I've never used heavishot but I have shot many many dozens of big northern geese.
If your shots are taking place at 30 yards and smaller sizes of shot have good penetration, you need to go smaller, not larger. At 30 yards the density ( and so your hit ratio) of a load of #4 will out-perform the pattern of BB's. Lots of hits on target causes multiple hit shock syndrome, causing the bird to fall. Not to mention with so many more shot in the pattern the chance of breaking wing bones is about 2 times as likely.
Heavishot sounds like the perfect candidate for smaller shot sizes.

 

[ffffg]

fusil, your saying youv shot many dozens of geese with black powder below freezing temperatures? what gauge?, what load/? what type and size of shot... thanks. dave..

 

[Rebel]

I have taken a few Canadas in some really cold weather using my Navy Arms double barrel .12 ga with cyl bores. I used 95 gr Pyrodex RS, an over powder wad, a plastic steel shot cup that is slit on the sides, 1 1/4 oz of #1 steel shot and an overshot card. Works ok on them out to about 30 yds.

 

[ffffg]

heres a looksee at greater canadas " The largest of the all the Canada Geese, ganders (males) can weigh in excess of 23 pounds. Giant Canadas were restored to their former range in the Mississippi and Central flyways and are now said to breed in all states east of the Mississippi River." ........
CANADA GOOSE FACTS
Height: 20 inches-48 inches
Weight: 3-24 lbs
Life Span-Avg. 10-25 years
Maximum 42 (in captivity)
Flight Speed: 10-50 MPH
Range: All of The United States, The Lower portions of each Canadian Province, Northern Mexico
Habitats: wetlands, marshes, lakes, streams, rivers, coastal areas, urban retention/detention basins
Foods: grains, succulents, forbs, grasses, pondweeds, lawns in urban areas .................... picture one of these in your sights with a 4 foot wing span [url] http://barbarascamera.com/canadageese.html[/url] this bird in this possition would be very diffucult to kill, expecially over water, if you break the wing it will simply swim away. its vitals are covered by both the wing and body feathers.. they can kick an inexperienced average sized labs butt n the water..alot of labs will never take on a mature canada in the water.. many thousands of these birds are wounded and fly off to die each year.. i hit one so hard with number bb bismuth this year at about 30 yards that it dropped 10 feet, started pulling out of the dive and kept up with the group. when it landed i could hear the coyotes howeling out on the lake ice, heading for thier free meal... they must have smelled it, seen it, or something.. these magnificent birds deserve better than that. wing shots with smaller shot will leathally wound at least as many birds as it downs in my opinion... shock from any load with a 12 gauge will not knock out (shock) a 20-24 pound goose over 20 yards with any shotgun load in my opinion.. all of the geese that ive taken with black powder had either a broken neck or broken wing (over ground)... the proper way to get a waterfoul with black powder is to have enough penetration into the breasts or vitals to bring it down over land or have a boat if over water.... dave




:grin:

 

[Rebel]

Yep, that be the critter. :grin:

 

[pmwest]

Yes they are large and difficult to kill. Actually had about 300 fly over the house this morning 30 yds high. Too bad they are out of season now and I live in town where shooting in not allowed”¦

I would suggest only loading Hevi-Shot in a muzzleloader with plastic wads designed specifically for use with that shot. The plastics used to make these wads are much tougher than even the wads intended for steel shot. The pellets are somewhat irregular in shape with some spikes and protruding nodules that would surely shred paper or standard wads. Any bore contact will leave scour and pits. Because the wads are so tough they tend to erode less than other plastics at the base over black powder. If you drive these to max velocities then an overpowder card wad should limit plastic wash. I generally make a habit of swabbing the bore after 3-5 shots whenever I use any plastics.

There should not be a problem with the wads separating from the shot string even in cold weather. The only way to know for sure is at a pattern board. Lesser or no choke might be the ticket or in extreme cases, use a spreader if the pattern is too tight.

 

[No Deer]

What is the name of these plastic wads, and who carries them? I have some hevishot and tried to use it with paper shot cups, but as you said, it just shredded them. Have heard many times not to use plastic because it will melt in the barrel, how is this prevented? using over powder card and a wad? I also have some bismuth, but have not experimented much with it.

 

[Mike Brooks]

thanks Hoyt ill give them a call.... and yes Mike illbet hell be up for a challange but it will be quite an effort.. for those who wont give up shot cups, a plastic shot cup desined for 1500 fps will not open at 1050 fps in cold weather, ...... paper shot cups with a slitted system is a possibilty,,but it will break open in the jug, so a constrictive choke would be needed with that.. improved cylinder would probablybe fine. ... we in the usa cannot use lead.. bismuth is a 20 percent loss in density over lead (aprox),,bismuth max size is bb or it would probably work with larger shot.. heavy shot is a 10-20 percent gain over the density of lead (aprox)... any shotgunner with limited velocity can realize the improtance of this fact.. modern shotgunners are getting compete pass thrus on ducks with number 7 heavy shot.. similar results have been reported with 5 heavyshot on geese.. but thats at 1500fps aprox.. i just want a load that will kill huge local geese, these things look like coyotes with wings,, at 30 yards..1050 fps and 1n 3/8 oz bb bismuth just dont seem to be able to do it efficently.. 10ga with 1050 fps and 1 3/8 oz heavy shot in the right size would probably be quite leathal.. i have no trouble with ducks and number 4 bismuth in late winter with black powder out to 35-40 yards... velocity is not variable, bigger bismuth is not availible,, denser shot (heavy shot) is available.. .. thanks for your help.. dave..

My solution?.... :hmm: Paul will go bonkers, but I'd go with more powder and shot. Get the volume of shot up to fill in the pattern, and of course increase the powder to pump up the velocity to the speed you need. Of course you're going to have to go back to the pattern board to get this all sorted out. This is the great thing about muzzle loading shot guns, you're not limited by the volume of the cartridge. Stoke her up if you have to! I never have gotten good reluts with plastic shot cups. Inconsistant shot patterns and melted plastic, even with a cusion and hard card under them. Bad news in my book.
So, will anybody tell me what heavyshot is made out of? or did I miss that part?

 

[Hoyt]

Mike..Hevi-Shot is a new non-toxic shotshell pellet made from a tungsten alloy, nickel, and iron that is denser that lead.

And cost more than gold...almost.