sometimes heavy plastic shot cups on the pattern board will open and work fine, sometimes they will turn and open at one petal and spread the shot out in an unusual pattern hard to tell what is going on,, and anyone who has gone wrong with a paper cup knows when one turns and hits the board in a large game single hit type impact.. i think one thing that is confusing some people about these critters and bp is that when you hunt with a smoothbore flintlock you usually have one shot.. this is a terrible consequence with wing shots as if you dont hit a bone, and this is common, youve killed the animal hours later when with a sinners gun you keep pumping shot into the same bird trippleing your chances.... body shots on ducks with number 4 bismuth is a stone dead killer with a good load in my 16 guage cylinder bore out to 40 yards.. so i know if i can get body pennetration with heavier, bigger or dencer shot i can humanely kill these beasts at 30 yards... at this time i should not be shooting over 25 yards.. it is extreemly difficult to estimate distance on a large moveing object in the sky by the way.especially when the size of the objects vary... you guys have no idea how much this is helping me... i can see my mistakes planely as we discuss it.. :hmm: heavy shot in a smoothbore may be one of them... over decoys in the opening of the season you can get frontal shots at 25 yards or leass, which the way to do this.. but these places are at a premium, bought and paid for by rich hunters, guides, maximum brownnosing teckniques, and other problems that make it unfun to get into.. as the season progresses these critters become humanly smart in their self protection mode where they land and when they come and go...but thats hunting......dave.. :grin:
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special barrel for heavyshot
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No Deer said:
Tungsten Propulsion System wads from Ballistic products Inc.
Several shotshell companies are using their own wads for tungsten shot but I cannot seem to find anything available to handloaders other than BPI’s wads. Most of the catalogs and online vendors offer BPI wads. They have also developed some loadings using the MultiMetal wad too but I don’t have data on them.
When developing waterfowl loads, I subscribe to the theory that “speed kills”. I will sacrifice a few pellets to get higher velocity as long as I can still get an acceptable pattern at the range I need. Takes a lot of work with paper and chronograph but then I love to shot and gives me something to work on in the off season.
Thats $10.95 for 100 of them not for each wad.
Look at the top of the ad. It says 100 per pack. The unit price is per pack of 100.
TPS 12GA 275 SLIT WAD 100PK
TPS 12GA 275 SLIT WAD 100PK
paulvallandigham
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Mike: You are always going to get melted plastic from the sides of the shotcup going down the barrel. The melted bottom is what destroys patterns, and that can be prevented with the overpowder wads. As to the use in jug chokes, I suppose it would depend on the amount of choke in the gun as to how well the plastic shotcups, or the paper ones will stay together, as well as how close to bore size you make the cups. I would want to put several cushion wads behind that plastic shotcup, so that when the cup is in that jug choke, it doesn't have to deal with gas blow-by. When the overpowder wad enters the jug, the front of the cup with the shot will have passed the jog and be near the muzzle. By the time the gase gets into the jug around that overpowder wad, the base of the plastic wad will be into the front of the jug choke, and not affected by the gases. Obvously, to do this right, you need to know the length of the jug choke, but I am sure whoever does the work on your gun will tell you that.
As for putting in more shot to fill out the pattern, Mike, I am not against it at all. You do have to remember that the more shot you add, the slower the velocity, assuming you use the same amount of powder. YOu can increase the speed of the shot charge by increasing the powder charge, or by decreasing the amount of shot in the load. This poses somewhat of a problem in modern shotguns, as the given length of the casings limits how much of both shot and powder you can fit in the things. However, in a ML shotgun, you can load what you need. Before looking at 4 dram loads, however, I suggest people read V.M. Starr's article on ML shotguns, and loads. I may not be getting excited, my old V.M. may be rolling over in his grave!
As for putting in more shot to fill out the pattern, Mike, I am not against it at all. You do have to remember that the more shot you add, the slower the velocity, assuming you use the same amount of powder. YOu can increase the speed of the shot charge by increasing the powder charge, or by decreasing the amount of shot in the load. This poses somewhat of a problem in modern shotguns, as the given length of the casings limits how much of both shot and powder you can fit in the things. However, in a ML shotgun, you can load what you need. Before looking at 4 dram loads, however, I suggest people read V.M. Starr's article on ML shotguns, and loads. I may not be getting excited, my old V.M. may be rolling over in his grave!
Hi, I've been reading your forums with great interest and many interesting and valid points are being made. But may be you guys should pay a visit to the South Island of New Zealand. We (ML)are allowed to use lead on game and Canadian geese are a pest over here, so can be shot out of season with a Fish & Game permit, plus there is no bag limit at the moment. Happy shooting.
paulvallandigham
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Nuisance permits are issued liberally in some of the Canadian Provinces, too, if someone want to travel that far to shoot geese.
paulvallandigham
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The cost of the air fare from the U.S. to New Zealand is beyond the budget of most of the members of this forum. It would be a once-in-a-lifetime- trip for most of us. But being able to shoot lots of geese would be a plus for making the trip.
That comment was not intended to be negative. The cost of traveling to Northern Canada would also be fairly expensive. I was just stating fact. Most hunters here hunt close to home, and eat what they shoot. Taking time from work, to travel out of state, is a big deal for most of us.
That comment was not intended to be negative. The cost of traveling to Northern Canada would also be fairly expensive. I was just stating fact. Most hunters here hunt close to home, and eat what they shoot. Taking time from work, to travel out of state, is a big deal for most of us.
Joel/Calgary
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paulvallandigham said:
With respect Paul, a dram is and always has been a unit of WEIGHT, being defined (for our purposes) as 1/16 of an avoirdupois ounce. Since the avoirdupois pound was also subdivided into both 16 ounces and 7000 grains ("plump grains of wheat" IIRC), a avoirdupois dram always has equalled 27.34... grains. We use volumetric measures for the same reason that the old timers did - it's very convenient. But we tend to deal with amounts of different solids by weight, so these measures were/are marked for the weight they hold of the specified solids. This presumes an adequately-consistent density for powder and for shot, but it was close enough for most uses and those measures are marked for the weights expected to be delivered, not (normally) in any units of volume. How closely the weights delivered match the weights marked depends on how closely our techniques and the bulk density of the powder or shot we're measuring match those for which the measure was calibrated.
When we start measuring things other that that for which a given measure was calibrated, life gets really awkward. For example, if someone refers to a 96 grain measure (or 3.5 dram measure) of Pyrodex (or of #4 magnum shot), the resultant does not weigh 96 grains (or 3.5 drams) or have a volume of 96 grains or 3.5 drams (as neither is a unit of volume), it is whatever-the-weight-is of Pyrodex (or shot) contained in a volume that would hold gunpowder weighing 96gr (or 3.5dr). It is unfortunate that this shorthand usage has become so common, as many people have been mislead by it.
As a compounding issue, when old documents do not clearly differentiate whether they are referring to apothecary or avoirdupois weights (different pounds, ounces, and drams/drachms), things can also get quite confusing. Unfortunately, context does not always help, as both systems have been used in reference to powder and shot weights, although avoirdupois seems to have notably more common.
Joel
p.s. - Paul, as you might gather, this is another of my incorrect-common-usage hot-buttons, and the belabouring of it is not directed at you in particular.
everyone, please leave your smokeless opinions at home... we are discussing black powder only.. so if you like a certain shot, or your experience is of shooting these critters without black powder your comments are worthless, and confuse the issue....... thankyou.... im hoping that the lead bb comments is using black powder....is im going to put it into my thoughts of this issue...... .. as to speed there is no speed with black powder shotguns......... not compared to what modern loads are disgned for..... thus the worthlessness of heavey plastic shotcups....... a dependable velocity is around 1050 or maybe 1100 feet per second...... as you go over that with a large bird type gun, that is 12 guage or 11-10 guage, the excess pressures and large circumfrence of the nitro card, and increased shot weight will create blow by or tipping, in one round, and quite high velocity in another,........ you just cant get it to settle down......if the loads arent consistent you have a poor load..... i worked this velocity thing pretty hard last fall and was pretty dissapointed...... one point of interest was, i figureed i could go to fg and increase my powder amount significantly not getting blow by and getting lots of velocity... . my barrel is 36 inches including jug choke and that could be the problem, but i never got its velocity over 1000 fps..... mostly around 950 fps some lower than 900fps...... .. now back to shot size and density....... as the size of shot gets larger your wind resistence increases along with pennetration problems along with maybe going thru the wing to vitals, and body etc, heavy winter plumage, and the toughest of all, muscle.. muscle slows down pellets with great efficency, before the pellet gets to the muscle it can pickup some feathers, altho this is more prevelent with pheasants in my opinion...... the obviose answere, to not using lead, is a more dence metal, that would alow smaller shot, better pennetration and less wind resistence....... all this trouble for 5-10yards???? the problem with that is that the difference between 20 and 30 yards is twice the shots presented in hunting situations by these wary beasts..... i shamfully admit after this discussion that if i had put my energys into getting withing 20 yards of the geese id have taken one or two now and then with a flintlock.... i have shot a couple with sxs pedersoli 10 gauge, but my opinoin, at 30 yards it usually takes two shots into the same bird with this type gun at that range.......i just didnt want to admidt that realize that 30 yards was in my circumstance, out of range.... next year i will consentrate on what IS my range and how to get within that range of the geese..... . ..of course we all know as the yardage decreases the power is increased siginificantly with round balls.. . .dave.. :grin:
crowkiller
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I use hevi-shot in my 12 and 10ga.The only way to get the wads to open is to bend the peddles back and crease them.I use 4 slits 3/4 of the way down.
Jug chokes are worthless with hevi and you will score your barrel with a jug choke.I use a cork wad over the powder then shotcup.My guns have screw in chokes with extended steel shot choke tubes.With hevi never use tighter than modified choke.Hevi patterns better than lead and kills better than lead.The wads I use are the bpi tuff wads or the sam1
Jug chokes are worthless with hevi and you will score your barrel with a jug choke.I use a cork wad over the powder then shotcup.My guns have screw in chokes with extended steel shot choke tubes.With hevi never use tighter than modified choke.Hevi patterns better than lead and kills better than lead.The wads I use are the bpi tuff wads or the sam1
so in your opinion would a flintlock cylinder bore 10 gauge single shot with 1 1/2 ounce of heavyshot or therebouts would be good for 20 pound geese at 30 yards??? what size shot do you use for what type game with black powder?..especially geese if you shoot them with black powder.. what velocity are you getting? thanks dave.
Joel/Calgary
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I went nosing around and found out I was partly wrong, or at least my info had been incomplete. Besides the informal Scottish (and Danish!!!) usage of "dram" for an indeterminate small amount of ardent spirits, there is an actual unit of a "fluid dram" that is 1/8 of a fluid ounce. It looks like it evolved form the Apothecary drachm/dram weight, which is 1/8 of an Ap. ounce or 60 grains. Just to make life more complicated, since the Imperial and American fluid ounces are slightly different, their fluid drams are similarly slightly different. As a unit for liquids, it has nothing to do with volumetric measurement of powdered or granular solids, but it was interesting to find.
Joel,
who occasionally wonders where the line is between useful information and trivia
Joel,
who occasionally wonders where the line is between useful information and trivia
Joel/Calgary
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clayman49 said:
I have a unchoked 16ga double with rough bores, and barrels too thin at the muzzle to hone them out completely, so I've worked with these and a variety of other DIY biodegradable shot protectors and have come back to two variations of a simpler design that's reasonably easy to use.
It's a 2-petal shotcup similar to the old Alcan "shot protector". If you haven't seen these, they were made from a strip of flat plastic, with a circle (the base) in the middle of two rectangles (the petals), with a fairly narrow connection between the base and each petal. The circle was, obviously, bore diameter, and rectangles had a width of 1/2 the bore circumference and a length of the height of the shot charge. You folded the petals up and roll them to insert them into the shot shell on top of whatever wads you were using for a seal and cushion.
The DIY ones can be made from either thick paper or light cardstock. The basic shape is a rectangle, with a width of 1/2 the bore circumference, or just under, and a length of the bore diameter plus twice the height of the shot charge. If the material is not too stiff, the shotcup can be made from the initial rectangle with no further cutting: wrap it around the end of the "former", align and form into a cylinder, then fold in the "corners" on the base under. With stiffer material, one can cut away excess around the base like the Alcan ones, but I've never found it necessary and just make cuts at the bottom of the petals, angled slightly into the base (to give a slightly wider and stronger attachment), and fold the excess around the base up into short reinforcements, either inside or over the outside of the bottom of the petals. It is often easier to pre-form the shot protector at home, getting the petals even, creasing the edges of the base, etc., reopen it flat for compact storage and transportation, then reform it quickly on loading.
They are reasonably easily laid out using hand-drawing, spreadsheet cells (without full base details), or a CAD program. With manual or CAD drawing, one can add details of the shotcup's base, which helps alignment when you're loading.
I found an interesting variation on them while working on steel-shot loads (haven't finished development yet). If you make the petals ~1/4" wider than half-bore-circumference, the overlap you get when you load them makes them much less likely to to allow a gap if they slip a bit out of alignment. This also makes them less fussy to load through a choke (one of my buddies has a choked 12ga double), and possibly suitable for use inside paper cartridges.
I also found a very interesting free material - the smooth-on-one-or-both-sides card stock of old telephone book covers. You find similar material in other paperback book covers, some flyers/junk mail, and color/photo laser printer/copier card stock (but NOT inkjet photo stock). They range from 6-10 mil (.006-.010") thickness and the clay finish (not the plastic finish of inkjet stock) makes them really slick. This is thin enough to be reasonably easy to work, but gives surprisingly good protection for the thickness, and I think the slickness is critical to this - naturally, they go slick-side out. In my limited testing so far with some 8-mil phone-book covers, one thickness was sufficient to prevent scrub-through with a 1oz/3.1/4dr load of Fe#5 in my 16ga. I was getting scrub-through with much thicker multiple-thicknesses of uncoated card stock. I still need to test more to verify that one thickenss is enough for my fowler with 1.1/4oz 3.1/2 or 3.3/4dr Fe#3 loads, and I suspect one might need 2 thicknesses (2 protectors nested, probably at right angles) when shooting steel through a choke, or possibly even 3 when going through the forcing cone of a suppository gun. The lumpiness of heavi-shot might require greater thickness than steel or bismuth.
Joel
