square cut or roundcut barreling

[chrissiegrist]

I have two .54's.the square cut rifled one has 8 groves and is VERY difficult to get more than two shots off and the groups are 5 inches at 25yds. using lubed patches .530 ball & .010 wonder lubed cotton patch.Round cut has 6 groovesw and I can get 5 rounds off before groups begins to open. 1st shot1"low, 2,3&4 touching and 5th 1" high.I use a.526 with a .015 lubed patch now as when I used the .530 and .010 patch it did not group.Is there a speacial reason for the square cut? Is it ment for other than a round ball? :surrender:

 

[john12865]

Do you mean rifling ?

 

[roundball]

Is there a speacial reason for the square cut? Is it ment for other than a round ball?

It's not out of consideration for something other than a round ball...ie: most barrels made specifically for round ball barrels have square cut rifling...and I believe square cut rifling is more accurate. Others more knowledgable than I can probably explain better.

 

[Birddog6]

Try a .535 ball & .015 patch on them. I find on the square cut rifing I need a tighter ball/patch combo to seal off good. If you cannot load after one shot shot it indicates way too much blowby & excessive fouling because the ball/patch combo is too loose in the barrel. Or lube failure & it is burning & baking.

Another thng to try is to load your powder, load 2 greased patches over the powder (or lubed Wonder Wad), then a grease patched round ball over that. That will for sure seal it off & see if that improves the accuracy & gives you less fouling so you can reload easier.

But first thing your message indicates is the Ball/Patch combo is way too small.

Also you have to try dif charges to find what shoots best in the rifle. REAL black powder, not a sub. etc.

ALL group testing should be done on sand bags from a solid bench to eliminate shooter error.

:thumbsup:

 

[chrissiegrist]

All the shooting was done on bench rest to minimize shooter error.On the round groove[rifleing} I started with a .530 and a .010 patch. Bad groups. upon suggestion from whiterifles[Doc] I changed to .526 with a .015 patch and got 1" groups @ 25 and 3" @ 50yds but bullet drop was 6 inches at 50yds??? Minimal fouling. Just a couple three patches after 5 shoots brought the groups touching at 25yds.Also heard about that wad mentioned elsewhere. More info please. Heard that barrel should be dyr while loading to prevent powdwer sticking on barrel?? Does lube effect the charge?

 

[BrownBear]

What make are your two barrels? There are some that are bored small, but those sound awfully small. Have you slugged them?

I agree that the symptoms you describe sound more like question of undersize ball and patch or lube problems, rather than anything to do with rifling style.

Good question on the rifling though. I remember past discussions about it, or was it debate? But I can't remember if anyone got far enough past theory to claim they'd won the fire hydrant.

 

[chrissiegrist]

I use goex 2f for charge and elephant3f for primer. Started at 50gr and worked up to 95 in 5gr increments to try and locate a sweet spot it seemed best at 85. but that was with .530ball and .010lubed patch. Do you prefer linen or cotton patch?

 

[chrissiegrist]

Being they are custom rifle I cann,t be sure but believe they are Green Mountain.Round groove seems to be a tighter seal as I get less fouling then the square cut. Do I use thicker patches as they would conform to the rifling better than a larger ball?

 

[chrissiegrist]

Yes

 

[chrissiegrist]

Rifle was made by Tip curtis from Tennessee. Well respected in the Black powder community

 

[Runner]

Round cut grooves are supposed to seal easier with patched round ball. Round is also easier to clean than square groove because there are no corners in the bottom of the grooves. As far as accuracy, it is a minor concern as it really doesn't make that much difference. Rifling deep enough to work with a good thick patch, grooves wider than the lands, and the twist is more important in a round ball barrel. I shoot a 495 with a .015 patch and with part of a lubed shotgun wad pinched off rammed before the ball. The grooves in my gun are about medium depth with square bottoms and it is 1-66 twist. With a good patch or the patch/lubed wad combo, other than up and down, there is very little difference in the accuracy the barrel produces from 40 grains to 120 grains. My 1-48 guns have a much narrower acceptable accuracy loading choice. If I had my choice I would be shooting a 1-70 round groove barrel with narrow lands and wide grooves. I would like it to have at least 8 groove rifling and to be slightly choked.
Your excessive fouling/ poor accuracy would seem to indicate just what people have been saying here. A load that is not tight enough to seal or patches that are failing. Doc is a good source of info for sure!

 

[paulvallandigham]

You are not getting the benfit of your powder charge by using such an undersize ball and patch combination. You went the wrong way. You want a tighter ball and patch combination. That is why the ball is hitting so low at 50 yards.

Use either a .530 ball with a .018 or .020" patch or go to the .535 ball and a .015 ball. That is what virtually every other .54 caliber rifle shooters on this forum is using for accurate shooting, .54 caliber rifles are very rarely bad shooters. They almost always are very accurate.

There is a possibility that the front sight blade is TOO high, but most factories sell tall sights, expecting you to file them down. The exception seems to be those factories who provide adjustable rear sights on their rifles. To raise the point of impact, file the FRONT sight down.

 

[Birddog6]

I normally use a .015 - .016 pillow ticking patch & the largest ball I can get down the bore. They start with the nub starter hard, then a short starter (still pretty hard), then the RR raming down aprox 6" at a time. Now this is tighter than most guys use, but it works for me. (an exceptions is my deer rifle & it has a coned muzzle)

On a couple of rifles I use Oxjoke .015 patching, but most of them I have worked loads with pillow ticking.

You might want to call Tip & tell him your delimma & I am sure he will have a recommendation.

But I am pretty sure you are using way too loose a conmbo & thus getting excessive fouling because by not sealing the bore good. You are not burning the powder completely & quickly enough. The powder should be almost all burnt up within the first 22-25" of the bore & with a loose combo it is burning all the way down the bore & thus you are just burning lube all the way to the end & filling the bore with cruds. It will never group like that & is gonna be a PITA to reload, as you already know.

:hmm:

:thumbsup:

 

[chrissiegrist]

Appriciate the responses!!!! I have a starter and use it, short with wood ball to hit in and short 6"spring loaded brass shaft to get it that far.Doc says my round cut may be a bit tight as it is a virgin and the patch ball being only 1 thousanth over bore with the improved accuracy proved this to a point. Will move up to a tighter load, maybe .530 + .015 and see what happens. Do you lube your linen patches?

 

[chrissiegrist]

Thank you. I felt this must be the case at 50yds.I don,t intend to file the front sight down until I work up the proper load,patch,lube thing.I truely believe I would never get that combo in my 8 groove square cut with out cutting the patch beating it down the barrel. Question is could I increase the patch and not the round ball as the patch may conform to the groves due to its increased thickness??

 

[Hawken12]

Hi Wolf
I'm gonna jump in here,I shoot a 54 Green river,square cut riflin(bore is .544)land to land.
I shoot 65 gr. 3f.SPIT PATCH....526 ball,0.018 patch (ticking).Real tight groups,50, 25 yd .small cloverleafs...100 4 inch groups...25 50 ,same sighting...100 is 6 inch lower...200 yd is 6 FEET lower,don't ask about the group(4 x8 plywood)wanted to find out why I missed a deer at that dist.
I suggest you try the spit patch,its yers its free and its always there,consistency is the key.To me ya find out what the rifle can do,changin one thing atta time.shoot a group offa bench,sandbag rest where ya put yer hand on the forestock.You ask about lubes,thats another variable,see what she can do without that first,as theres lots out there.
I wipe between shots (so the barrel is relatively the same,we are tryin to keep things consistent.Ido this in competition and workin a load.
Huntin is different,I use moosemilk for lube,as it don't freeze up,as I can go a coupla days without,firin a shot.It can git real cold here and has worked fer me .
Hope this helps ya

 

[paulvallandigham]

Absolutely try different thicknesses of patching, and even different materials. Use cotton, as in pillow ticking, but also try denim, which is a coarser weave, and then linen pocket drill, which is a very tight woven fabric used to make almost all the pockets you find on men's slacks, and uniform pants. Take a micrometer or caliper to the fabric store when you go to buy. I would start out, personally, contacting track, by phone, and ordering their sample packet of various size patching strips. When you find the size that gives the tightest groups in your barrel, order a lot of that, or buy it at the fabric store by the square yard, and cut your own strips.

I found some military cleaning patches at a store-- probably an Army/Navy store--- that are made of the pocket drill and are 3 inch squares. I use them and cut them to size at the muzzle when testing, with my patch knife. The same with denim strips.

By all means, use a caliper to measure the bore and groove diameter of each barrel. You almost can't make any good decisions until you know EXACTLY what that land to land ( bore ) diameter is in a barrel, and you can't rely totally on the barrel maker's marking, unless you buy a custom made barrel from one of our small production barrel makers. The bore diameter determines what ball diameter to use, and then what patch thickness is required.

 

[Many Klatch]

My .54 rifle has round bottomed rifling. The barrel was made by Getz. I shoot a .526 ball and .018 patching with spit for a lube over 55 or 75 grains of 3F. I just shot it today. I put about 10 shots through it and never had to clean. I had a 5 shot group at 50 yards that I could cover with a dollar bill, and I rang the 100 yard gong with it. Since I only shoot offhand, I was happy with the way that it shot.

Many Klatch