Squib loads

[NAA_Silent]

I just spent 20 minutes writing a full range report just to have it evaporate in a second. I don't feel like typing it again, so...

How much powder can I reliably run in an Pietta 1851 .44 Navy Confederate? Cabelas says no more than 25 grains, Pietta says 15 grains max. I get Squib loads at 20 grains using American Pioneer and .454 balls. The groups don't start coming in until I hit 30 grains.

 

[Robert an saa fan]

Assuming your Pietta is a brass frame?

Several things come to consider:

1. Try a different powder.

2. Might get away with more powerful loads if you have one of the newer brass frame revolvers that do not tarnish as quickly or as much as the older ones.

I think the newer brass frame revolvers have a stronger alloy and hold up better. Caution; my keeper revolvers are all steel frames so I have not tested this theory in person. Again, just an opinion, based on way over 30 years messing with lots of cap and ball revolvers. Your mileage may vary.

Hopefully some else will respond with direct experience with the newer brass frame.

 

[Zonie]

25-30 grains is usually considered the range the .44 Colt revolvers are loaded to with a plain lead round ball.

You could use a load like that however because your pistol has a brass frame most folks don't recommend it.

Brass framed guns tend to 'shoot loose' if full power powder loads are used.

With a full 30 grain powder load, two things can happen to a brass framed Colt style pistol.

The cylinder can indent the recoil shield ring that is behind the cylinder.
This will eventually allow the cylinder to rattle forward and aft with each shot and it will get progressively worse over time.
It can create very large gaps between the cylinder and the forcing cone in the barrel.

The other thing that can happen is the cylinder arbor or pin can come loose where it attaches to the revolvers frame. Obviously having a loose cylinder pin is not only bad for accuracy but it can become dangerous, possibly allowing the barrel to be shot off of the gun.

For a brass framed .44 I would say the maximum powder load under a roundball would be 25 grains with 20 recommended for regular shooting.

 

[NAA_Silent]

The Confederate series are brass frames.

I don't think the powder is the problem, it works great in my steel framed '60 Army at 35 grains. Same powder, same balls, same caps, different grain quantities. 777 works down to 17.5 grains in the Navy, but then agan, it's about 15% hotter than black powder, so you actually use about 15% less of a charge for the same effect.

 

[Robert an saa fan]

Zonie,

What do you think of my theory (see number 2 in my post just above yours) that the newer brass frame revolvers have a stronger alloy?

Robert

 

[Zonie]

Until now, I hadn't heard that any of the gun makers have changed a thing on their brass framed pistols.

It's possible that they did but I don't know why they would bother changing the alloy unless they got a new alloy cheaper. Typically, the higher strength cast brass alloys are much more expensive.

For years it has been common knowledge that the brass framed guns are inherently weaker than their steel counterpart.
I have not heard of Pietta or any other company that has made the brass framed Colt copies replacing one of them because of the strength of their frames.

Importers like Dixie usually has large warnings about the weakness of the brass framed guns that they sell and then, we have other folks who include instructions to limit the powder loads to some ridiculous low powder load that is almost unusable.

Why do you think they changed the material to a higher strength brass?

 

[Robert an saa fan]

Until now, I hadn't heard that any of the gun makers have changed a thing on their brass framed pistols.

It's possible that they did but I don't know why they would bother changing the alloy unless they got a new alloy cheaper. Typically, the higher strength cast brass alloys are much more expensive.

For years it has been common knowledge that the brass framed guns are inherently weaker than their steel counterpart.
I have not heard of Pietta or any other company that has made the brass framed Colt copies replacing one of them because of the strength of their frames.

Importers like Dixie usually has large warnings about the weakness of the brass framed guns that they sell and then, we have other folks who include instructions to limit the powder loads to some ridiculous low powder load that is almost unusable.

Why do you think they changed the material to a higher strength brass?

I have noticed over time both the newer brass frame revolvers and the newer brass framed lever action cartridge rifles like the Henry and 1866 Winchester copies do not tarnish as quickly or as heavily as the older ones... so I assumed they changed the alloy and assumed they made the alloy stronger.

I attend quite a few gun shows so get to handle/observe a lot of revolvers. Also in talking to people who have used the newer brass frame revolvers it seems they have fewer problems as you described. More informative owners manuals and more widespread knowledge of the brass frame's potential problems may be a factor in seeing fewer problems.

Again, just a theory. Would be nice to know for sure if the newer brass frame revolvers are a stronger alloy.

 

[NAA_Silent]

For a brass framed .44 I would say the maximum powder load under a roundball would be 25 grains with 20 recommended for regular shooting.

Since I get squibs at 20 grains on the Navy, I'll just stick to 25 and maybe let the kids plink. If I want to actually shoot I'll use the '60 Army and 35 grains.

Weirdest cylinder I ever fired. Thought I saw the first ball hit the ground 1/2 way to the target (25 yards), and 3 squibs off 1 loading. A vertical line of holes that hit the target a good 1.5-2 feet long. I can't run 20 grains in the Navy regardless of what Pietta states in their owners manual.

 

[Zonie]

The "weak" power of your loads is due to the powder you are using.

Every single write up I've read, and that is a lot of them, which included American Pioneer powder has shown that it is at least 15 percent less powerful than Pyrodex or real black powder in the tests. In some tests it has been closer to 20 percent weaker.

Based on this, as long as you continue to shoot American Pioneer you are probably quite safe with your 25 grain powder load.

 

[NAA_Silent]

If the AP powder is 20% weaker than standard black powder, then I shouldn't I be safe going to the 30 grains that brings the groups in? Unfortunately, AP is the only locally sold powder. Everything else has to come with that darn $20 hazmat fee.

 

[Leatherbark]

Back in 1989 I bought a brass framed 1860 Colt replica from Gander Mountain. The only marking on the gun was "Armsport". No Pietta, no Uberti, not even proof marks IIRC. I swore I'd never have another brass frame revolver, but at $69.95?

I'll swear I shot and tuned that revolver over the next 15 years. I only used 25 grains of 3f black, but after sight work and trigger tuning I could bounce soda pop cans around at 35 yards just like shootin a 22 auto Ruger.............When I gave that pistol away they cylinder pin was as tight as the day it was made and the wedge was not buggerred.

I think that maybe they sometimes get better brass from different suppliers?

Bob

 

[CoyoteJoe]

If the AP powder is 20% weaker than standard black powder, then I shouldn't I be safe going to the 30 grains that brings the groups in? Unfortunately, AP is the only locally sold powder. Everything else has to come with that darn $20 hazmat fee.

You can't make that assumption. The thing with American Pioneer is that it is inconsistent. Once the can is opened it will absorb moisture from the air, become harder to ignite and lose power. If you work up a load from an old can you may get a surprise when you open a new can.
Surely there must be someone who sells Pyrodex. With all the substitute powders which have come and gone over the years Pyrodex is still the most widely sold. It works very well in revolvers and you can use either the "RS" or "P" grade Pyrodex. The "P" is expressly for "Pistols" but the "Rifle/Shotgun" grade will also work just fine in revolvers, albeit not quite obtaining the maximum possible velocity. I'm more interested in accuracy than power and for my own 1860 the most accurate load proved to be 28 grains of RS Pyrodex. :thumbsup:

 

[NAA_Silent]

You can't make that assumption. The thing with American Pioneer is that it is inconsistent. Once the can is opened it will absorb moisture from the air, become harder to ignite and lose power.

That makes sense. Unfortunately, the one mom and pop vendor around here that sells powder is in love with AP. I haven't been overly impressed with it myself. Black Powder isn't very big in this area, only 2 vender's that I've found in 50 miles. I'm fixing to make an order with Powder Valley, so I think I'll toss in some Pyrodex P with my smokeless order. Might take a bit of time tho, the orders gonna be a biggun, gotta spread out that $25 hazmat fee.