Starting charge for these new conicals

[logandiana]

On my first trip to the range I was only able to fire 2 shots of patched round ball before I had to call it a day. It was my first time shooting any muzzleloading rifle and I used 70 grains of triple seven FFg. I am going back to the range on Tuesday and will take with me the same round balls, and experiment with some different size patches. While at the gun show this past weekend I picked up two boxes of .50 cal conicals.

The one on the left is a 240 gn Hornady PA conical which says its optimized for 1:66 twist, but I've heard people having luck with them in a 1:48 twist like mine. The one on the right is a Buffalo Bullet Co 410 grain monster. I thought I'd give both of these a try just for the fun of it. What would be a good starting charge for these? A recap for others who haven't read my previous posts, I have a 50 cal Pedersoli frontier with a 39 inch 1:48 twist barrel, and right now the only powder I have is triple seven FFg.
Thanks

 

[galamb]

Yes, the one on the left looks like a PA.

I asked Hornady about those and was told they will work fine in 1:48 and slower twists.

I use 80 grains under the PA in a 1:70 twist and it pushes it fine - you may want to start a little lower (like work up from 60 maybe) just to make sure you don't blow past the rifling.

That "howitzer" round you have on the right is just plain massive. My concern with that one would be significant breech pressure.

Pedersoli puts a 100 grain max charge on your rifle with a roundball. With that big chunk of lead I would be real careful going north of 80 grains.

Now maybe your barrel is safe with 120 grains and maybe Pedersoli is just covering their butt with the 100 grain max.

Since it's your face that's 4" from the breech, you can decide what is "safe" for yourself.

 

[BrownBear]

I've dinked a fair bit with that Buffalo 410 in the past. Still have a few boxes if memory serves. Both rifles I've shot it in were 1:48's and accuracy was good at 80 grains of 2f or Pyro RS. Both required lubed felt wads between powder and slug for best accuracy though. Both guns were fairly light, and I had a fistful of reasons not to try heavier charges. :rotf:

 

[rodwha]

I'm curious, if you have calipers, what the OAL of the PA conicals are. I like what they did for those who have the slow twist barrels.

I designed a short (ball length) conical for my Pietta NMA as I thought they all had a RB (1:30") twist, as well as one that's shorter (.400"). Mine (newer) does not have a slower twist, but 1:16" and still shoots, as does my 1:16" twist ROA, the shorty bullets rather well.

 

[logandiana]

I am assuming OAL is overall length? If so I measured them at 567 thousandths.
I suppose I'll start with 80 grains and adjust from there.

 

[rodwha]

Thanks!

:hatsoff:

 

[rodwha]

I have a Lyman's .50 cal Deerstalker with a 1:48" twist and have only tried a 320 grn Lee REAL. It did quite poorly at 50 yds with the one shot without a wad at 50 yds key holing. The next 2 were with wads and they were nearly touching. These were with 70 grns of 3F triple 7, my typical PRB load.

Impressive enough that I bought a mold...

 

[nkbj]

Hmm, got a 48" twist Traditions Deerhunter barrel to try out REAL's in. That should be a blast!

 

[BrownBear]

I'd go to a brass ramrod from October Country and a decent short starter. Here is one from the same source, but there are lots more out there.

The Hornady GP is harder to start, but vastly more accurate. Beef up your ramrod and starter, and they're no problem.

One trick for improving conical accuracy in most rifles, including the Hornady, is to add that lubed felt wad over the powder. With that in place the Hornady has proven the most accurate in most rifles I've tried with conicals.

 

[Don Steele]

I tried a few of the PA conicals yesterday ( Thanks Moleeyes). I was shooting a T/C factory bbl. on my 50 cal. "Hawken". 28", 1:48 twist using 90 gns. of 3f Goex.
As an aside: I've spent some time this year working up a really good conical load for that bbl. for hunting only. A dedicated "sure 'nuff Hog Rifle" if you will. (Worked out great too...killed a nice Boar hog in GA opening week-end of BP season).
The BEST performance I found has been with Hornady's 385 gn. HP/HB "Great Plains" bullet.
Along the way, I tried Buffalo Bullet 385 HP/HB, T/C 370 gn."maxi-ball", T/C 275 gn. "maxi-hunter".
Besides the Great Plains, none of them were worth pursuing. The remaining items are subject to being melted down for RB's next casting session. Not worth the powder to send'em downrange.
Back to the PA conicals...
Yesterday, at 50 yds. off the bench, on a blustery day they shot as well from the 1:48 bbl as my Great Plains.
Next time out, when the darn wind quits blowing, I'm going to try them in my Green Mtn. "roundball" drop-in bbl.
Why..??
Just because I want to know.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have a TC Hawken 50 cal that does very well with 90 grains of Triple seven 2F, flet wad and 385 grain Hornady great plains bullet. So I'd try that and see what happens. Felt wads under the bullet help a lot. Ox-Yoke makes them.

 

[galamb]

Don, I shoot the PA's (dedicated) from a Green Mountain 50 cal (36" barrel, 1:70 twist).

I hunt (BP) with a 40 cal as my normal Bambi rifle but if I'm not hunting from my bow stand or am hunting an unfamiliar piece of property I go with the 50 cal.

At 240'ish grains the PA Conical gives you the same "thump" as a 54 cal roundball - so it's a super easy way to "up your caliber" if you need to.

Mine like 80 grains of FFF or Pyrodex P (don't shoot FF in anything) and make sub 2" groups at 75 yards.

I do notice the recoil, but again, regularly shoot a 40/PRB, but it's certainly not a "shoulder smasher".

I tried some heavier Buffalo's once upon a time in the 50 and decided if I needed that much "thump" I would wait for the CF season :grin:

 

[ccmountainman]

Back in late 70's had a Lee 360 gr REAL mould.
Lost it somewhere. Now they offer the 320gr.
CVA mountain rifle 50 cal. 1:48
Those conicals always shot just fine with 80 and85 grain ffg BP. I still use the same with the new 320gr REAL.
I've never used a wad in mine. Guess each rifle could be a bit different.
But I don't shoot paper with it. I can't see the holes at 100yd.
We hung a round steel plate in a tree. Our range was pretty much open desert.
We painted a 6" bull. Overall size one was 18" one 12".
As long as we heard it hit and it spun and moved we were happy.
Bull Elk or Moose you got roughly a 14" kill area to aim at. Mule deer and Elk about 12"
(yes I know I listed elk twice).
Upon reviewing the shots later, most were 6 to 8" from center.
Definitely close enough to be a killing shot.
When I shoot this rifle still practice the same.
Use the steel gong. Same with the smith and Sharps.

In yours the lighter one or the heavier one, I'd start at 60gr ffg and work up till you get the good load.

 

[mooman76]

I am assuming OAL is overall length? If so I measured them at 567 thousandths.
I suppose I'll start with 80 grains and adjust from there.

Personally I would start lower especially since you are using 777 and it's a little more powerful. More like 50 or 60gr and work up in 5 gr increments until accuracy starts to suffer or you find where you want to be.

 

[Vaino]

My TC Hawken's favorite and extremely accurate elk load is 100 grs 2f and the 410 gr Buffalo Bullet. This combo has killed many elk and formerly was my elk rifle but I now use a .54 PRB ahead of 120 grs 3f. Recoil in both is moderate as judged by myself and others who have shot the TC Hawken and the .54......Fred

 

[Loyalist Dave]

a 240 gn Hornady PA conical which says its optimized for 1:66 twist

:bull:

Well sorta bull.... there is a lot more than the twist rate to stabilize a conical bullet, and "optimize" for them is a relative term. I've seen 2-Band 1858 Enfields with 1:66 twist shoot one style of minie-ball well, and another like manure. Who knows if these would work or not unless they are test fired from a particular rifle?

LD

 

[logandiana]

From my post a couple weeks ago I had gone to the range to fire my frontier for the first time. I had no experience and managed to get off two rounds before a malfunction sent me home early.
I went back to the range today and was able to fire off 15 shots before I decided to call it a day. I followed some of the valuable advice given here and had a much more productive outing. Man I had fun too! I fired mostly patched round balls from my 50 cal frontier but I tried a few others bullets too. Instead of trying at 50 yards to start out I moved up to 30 yards. I had a couple hangfires but was able to find a good combination with patched round ball at this range. I used .490 ball with .015 wonderlube patch instead of .020 this time. Still to tight to start with my thumb but not as tight as before. I used 70grains of triple 7 FFg.

This is 5 shots stacked on top of each other at 30 yards, the two that are left and bottom were hangfires. (Those are interesting!)


In another post I mentioned that I had bought some new conicals as well to try out. I tried 1 of the 410 grain buffalo bullets (on the right) with no wad at 30 yards with 85 grains of the same powder. I only fired 1, because... OUCH!


The shot did go within about an inch of where I was aiming though so that's good. What really amazed me was the precision cutting of the paper.


Lets look at that a bit closer.
I couldn't have made a cleaner rounder cut with scissors!


So anyway if I am at 30 yards if I use 70 grains of 777 FFg and a .490 ball and a .015 patch I am pretty sure I can hit my mark. Or if I need to I can use 85 grains and the buffalo monster bullet.

So then I moved out to 100 yards just to see what would happen... At this point it had started to rain really hard. I was under shelter but the target area wasn't. I tried the same PRB combo as above, but was all over the place. I don't know how accurate I was supposed to be but my 5 shot group was high and left and was probably 10 inches across. Don't know if thats what I should have expected or not.
In this pic you can actually see 6 holes in paper but only 5 in paper and wood. I had reused an earlier target.


I then tried my last two shots on the target that was left up right next to mine. It had some other holes in it but you can tell which ones are mine. For these last two shots I used the hornady pa conical on the left in the pic above with no wad in front of 85 grains of powder. I was happier with the results than I thought I would be I think I am going to have to try these PA conicals some more.
My second shot at the bottom was about an inch from where I aimed.


I know rain is not the most ideal shooting condition for muzzleloading, but I had fun and except for a couple of hangfires, didn't really have any problems.

 

[BrownBear]

You're on a roll now! Congrats.

 

[gwalker]

Great shooting and I'm glad to hear you had fun this time at the range. Keep practicing and that group at 100 yards will tighten up.

George

 

[longcruise]

Looks pretty good!

I have two thoughts for you. First, regarding hang fires, the problem is probably due to the 777 powder. It has a higher ignition temp than black and actually higher than some of the other subs. You can mitigate somewhat with careful wiping between shots. Just a damp patch, not wet. You noticed several hang fires but your other shots may have been effected by slowish ignition that influenced your accuracy.

Second, you should not be able to finger start your ball. If it is hard to start but thereafter not too difficult to load, then you might want to take a look at improving your crown shape.

Did you per chance pick up any patches? Not fun to do in the rain!