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steel for tomahawks
- Thread starter John92
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Don't make the file too hard, or it will chip. 5160, or 6150, would be a better choice, They have much better inpact strength, but both require more than a simple heat treat to get the best from them.
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After hardening, cook it in your kitchen range using an oven thermometer to set your heat. Don't trust the range control. Since this is your first, you will want to experiment with the amount of heat to get the end hardness that suits your needs. Clean the oil off of it, or it will stink up your kitchen. I would start at around 450o, to 475o, with 3 one hour heats, cooling to room temp in between. Then put a handle on it, and go chop some hard oak, and see how it works out. Depending on what you intend for it to do, you may want to try it on some fresh bone. If fresh bone chips the blade, you might want to run a little higher temper, or just not use it on bone. I have a fine polled hawk, made by a very well known western maker. I am not sure of his choice of steel, I got it in a trade, but chopping through bone will chip it sometimes. I have just learned not to use it on thick bone. One day I may re-temper it, but it works OK if i'm careful with it. Edge thickness, and geometry also comes into play with how it performs.
William Joy
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I know I shouldn't say it - but files are not a good product for hatches or knifes. Start out with good materials!!
It's all a matter of what you wish to achieve.
Some people have totally unrealistic expectations of how a hawk/axe edge should function. They expect to sharpen it like a razor today, use it hard on everything, and to hold that edge for a year past next Tuesday!!!!!! Totally unrealistic expectations!
That axe/hawk edge is a WORKING cutting edge. If you use it, it will dull. If it dulls, just sharpen it. It is such a simple concept that way too many people have forgotten or never learned.
Ditto their knives!
Before the early 1700's, many of the basic TRADE axes and "hatchets" were made from all wrought iron, with NO steel cutting edge welded in. All SOFT iron! Yes, that cutting edge dulled quickly. But it was also easy to sharpen. And after you work wrought iron for a while, you will be surprised at how well it actually does hold a cutting edge. Just ask Gerry Barker about his early work forging up axes, knives, cutt-off hardies, and other sharp tools from wrought iron.
Modern "welding" iron/steel generally has around 18 to 20 points of carbon in it - designated 1018 or 1020 (now also called A36 I beleave). So it already has more carbon in it that that traditional wrought iron, and can be "hardened" more for cutting edges. 1045 has 45 points of carbon. Many knive makers use 1095 carbon steel - with 95 points of carbon. This will harden and temper very well for cutting edges. I make most of my flint strikers out of new 1095 carbon steel.
Old files can vary a lot in their actual metal alloy content. And a bunch of modern files are made from soft low-carbon iron and have the outside teeth layer Case-Hardened. So only a small fraction of an inch of the outside of the file has high carbon content, and the inside will not harden well for a cutting edge by modern standards. So you have to really check out those files to know what you are working with.
One of the cheapest available GOOD scrounged steel for welding into your axe/hatchet for a cutting edge would be --- lawn mower blades. They are generally made from 1084 carbon steel, or 5160 alloy steel. These are TOUGH steel to begin with, since a lawn mower blade takes a lot of abuse - and generally without breaking. And they hold a cutting edge pretty well. If you search around, you can generally pick them up for free, run around 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide, 1/8 to 3/16 inch thick with some running 1/4 inch thick. The hardest part is cutting a lawn mower blade down to the size you need for your project. The rest is just a forge-welding and heat-treating project. If you want to, you could make the whole hawk head from half of a lawn mower blade. Just harden only the cutting edge.
But you also might want to ... play around ... with some wrought iron. It's an interesting project. I've made three small axes and a half dozen knives so far - simple basic "trade" items, nothing fancy. And, as noted above, they hold an edge surprisingly well for being just wrought iron.
Hope some of these humble ramblings help.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Some people have totally unrealistic expectations of how a hawk/axe edge should function. They expect to sharpen it like a razor today, use it hard on everything, and to hold that edge for a year past next Tuesday!!!!!! Totally unrealistic expectations!
That axe/hawk edge is a WORKING cutting edge. If you use it, it will dull. If it dulls, just sharpen it. It is such a simple concept that way too many people have forgotten or never learned.
Ditto their knives!
Before the early 1700's, many of the basic TRADE axes and "hatchets" were made from all wrought iron, with NO steel cutting edge welded in. All SOFT iron! Yes, that cutting edge dulled quickly. But it was also easy to sharpen. And after you work wrought iron for a while, you will be surprised at how well it actually does hold a cutting edge. Just ask Gerry Barker about his early work forging up axes, knives, cutt-off hardies, and other sharp tools from wrought iron.
Modern "welding" iron/steel generally has around 18 to 20 points of carbon in it - designated 1018 or 1020 (now also called A36 I beleave). So it already has more carbon in it that that traditional wrought iron, and can be "hardened" more for cutting edges. 1045 has 45 points of carbon. Many knive makers use 1095 carbon steel - with 95 points of carbon. This will harden and temper very well for cutting edges. I make most of my flint strikers out of new 1095 carbon steel.
Old files can vary a lot in their actual metal alloy content. And a bunch of modern files are made from soft low-carbon iron and have the outside teeth layer Case-Hardened. So only a small fraction of an inch of the outside of the file has high carbon content, and the inside will not harden well for a cutting edge by modern standards. So you have to really check out those files to know what you are working with.
One of the cheapest available GOOD scrounged steel for welding into your axe/hatchet for a cutting edge would be --- lawn mower blades. They are generally made from 1084 carbon steel, or 5160 alloy steel. These are TOUGH steel to begin with, since a lawn mower blade takes a lot of abuse - and generally without breaking. And they hold a cutting edge pretty well. If you search around, you can generally pick them up for free, run around 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide, 1/8 to 3/16 inch thick with some running 1/4 inch thick. The hardest part is cutting a lawn mower blade down to the size you need for your project. The rest is just a forge-welding and heat-treating project. If you want to, you could make the whole hawk head from half of a lawn mower blade. Just harden only the cutting edge.
But you also might want to ... play around ... with some wrought iron. It's an interesting project. I've made three small axes and a half dozen knives so far - simple basic "trade" items, nothing fancy. And, as noted above, they hold an edge surprisingly well for being just wrought iron.
Hope some of these humble ramblings help.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
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The hardness of file steel depends on the heat treat. Mike Ameling pointed out that many files can be just case hardened and no good for making cutting tools, and others are just risky as to quality of the steel. I concur with two exceptions. Nicholson files are of excellent steel, and will do well with a relatively simple heat treat, and Simmonds brand seems just as good. The rest, I don't trust, and would not risk time, and labor on. Case hardening on a knife, or tomahawk is an exercise in futility. The case hardening will wear away and have to be redone, more sooner, than later.
Another thought on the hawk/axe you will be forging up.
How often and "hard" will you use it? Will you be using it most every day for chopping/cutting/splitting firewood and kindling? Or just a couple times a year at an event?
The more you will be using it, the more "attention" you might want to pay to the cutting edge of the blade. The more you use it, the more you will have to touch up that cutting edge. A good high-carbon cutting edge that is properly heat-treated will hold up better under frequent use, while low-carbon modern "welding iron" will hold up well enough for occasional light use, or need re-sharpening often.
So is the extra effort of welding in a good steel cutting bit worth investing the time in compared to your expected usage? And balanced that out against the extra time spent re-sharpening that soft cutting edge?
I have and use a "corn knife" around the farm/woods all the time (a farmer's version of a machete). It has some OK steel in it, and can take all the beating I give it chopping weeds, brush, and disassembling trees. I even use it on corn stocks occasionally. But I have to "touch up" that cutting edge all the time. The harder the stuff I chop through, the more often I have to sharpen it. But I can also re-sharpen it with just a file or sythe/sickle sharpening stone. It's a good trade-off between holding an OK edge, ease of sharpening, and toughness against chipping/breaking. And I can get it sharp enough to shave and cut leather if need be. If only the handle held up as well to all that shock.
Just a few humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
How often and "hard" will you use it? Will you be using it most every day for chopping/cutting/splitting firewood and kindling? Or just a couple times a year at an event?
The more you will be using it, the more "attention" you might want to pay to the cutting edge of the blade. The more you use it, the more you will have to touch up that cutting edge. A good high-carbon cutting edge that is properly heat-treated will hold up better under frequent use, while low-carbon modern "welding iron" will hold up well enough for occasional light use, or need re-sharpening often.
So is the extra effort of welding in a good steel cutting bit worth investing the time in compared to your expected usage? And balanced that out against the extra time spent re-sharpening that soft cutting edge?
I have and use a "corn knife" around the farm/woods all the time (a farmer's version of a machete). It has some OK steel in it, and can take all the beating I give it chopping weeds, brush, and disassembling trees. I even use it on corn stocks occasionally. But I have to "touch up" that cutting edge all the time. The harder the stuff I chop through, the more often I have to sharpen it. But I can also re-sharpen it with just a file or sythe/sickle sharpening stone. It's a good trade-off between holding an OK edge, ease of sharpening, and toughness against chipping/breaking. And I can get it sharp enough to shave and cut leather if need be. If only the handle held up as well to all that shock.
Just a few humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Blizzard of '93
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if you can find 'em the flat torsion spring plates from older air-cooled VW's rear suspension would be about ideal.
Here's some suggestions to the new blacksmith from my attempts to make hawks and adz's.
Starting with an old hammer head is a good way to start. No welding, no drifting but the cutting edge will not stay sharp. Not at least with the hammers I've messed with.
It's easy weld smaller pieces of steel but when a person starts forge welding iron the size of tomahawks, it's a all new field of fun. I have a heck of a time getting the weld to take. Flux, no flux what ever. I suggest that you can weld smaller stuff every time when you get to this point. I practice making circular strikers from garage door springs. They are particularly good because they force one to weld high carbon.
Folding over a piece of mild steel an trying to weld a piece of high carbon into the center sounds easy but it's even harder. Keeping the chunk of high carbon in the slot is just nuts. I experimented with wrapping it with bailing wire and that works, you just weld the bailing wire right into the head. The the way, I use small trailer leaf springs.
The only things I've been able to consistantly do so far is...
Fold over and weld an old files. For some reason the files went real easy. I recomend trying this first. I think it's because of the file teeth. The weld takes better, but I have no idea why. I recomend using buring goggles to see the steel. The UV rays will burn up your eyes too.
Drifting a hole into a larger chunk of high carbon works too. But one has to fashion several drifts out of steel to make this work. I start with a hot cut chisel and then use a drift hand made drift. Drifting down through the steel works better than hammering the head down on the drift. It deforms the hole less.
Here's the problems I've had welding...
When you fold over a strap of steel it tends to act like a spring and it never wants to stay closed. Bring it up to welding temp, smack it together and it springs open. I generally now simply fold over the piece almost completely flat and then re-drift the hole open. This is a good test to see if the weld held or not. Something else that helps is to form the blade on both sides then weld, The sides are thinner, thinner is easier to weld but easier to burn.
Finally and most importantly, one of my friends folds over low carbon steel, he sandwichs things like circular saw blade chunks in the middle. Wire welds the top and bottom edges. He Beats the head into shape and calls it good. After the grinder hits it, you can hardly tell the difference. I don't recomend this. I'm stubborn and I refuse to take the easy way out.
Sorry for bieng so long winded. I work in front of a computer all week but I live when I'm in front of a forge. It's the only thing I've been able to do besides wood carving and playing music that that I find, brings out the true nature in a person.
I gotta go, I'm teaching a new blacksmith this morning. It's starting to catch on that teach basic blacksmithing for free.
Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado
Starting with an old hammer head is a good way to start. No welding, no drifting but the cutting edge will not stay sharp. Not at least with the hammers I've messed with.
It's easy weld smaller pieces of steel but when a person starts forge welding iron the size of tomahawks, it's a all new field of fun. I have a heck of a time getting the weld to take. Flux, no flux what ever. I suggest that you can weld smaller stuff every time when you get to this point. I practice making circular strikers from garage door springs. They are particularly good because they force one to weld high carbon.
Folding over a piece of mild steel an trying to weld a piece of high carbon into the center sounds easy but it's even harder. Keeping the chunk of high carbon in the slot is just nuts. I experimented with wrapping it with bailing wire and that works, you just weld the bailing wire right into the head. The the way, I use small trailer leaf springs.
The only things I've been able to consistantly do so far is...
Fold over and weld an old files. For some reason the files went real easy. I recomend trying this first. I think it's because of the file teeth. The weld takes better, but I have no idea why. I recomend using buring goggles to see the steel. The UV rays will burn up your eyes too.
Drifting a hole into a larger chunk of high carbon works too. But one has to fashion several drifts out of steel to make this work. I start with a hot cut chisel and then use a drift hand made drift. Drifting down through the steel works better than hammering the head down on the drift. It deforms the hole less.
Here's the problems I've had welding...
When you fold over a strap of steel it tends to act like a spring and it never wants to stay closed. Bring it up to welding temp, smack it together and it springs open. I generally now simply fold over the piece almost completely flat and then re-drift the hole open. This is a good test to see if the weld held or not. Something else that helps is to form the blade on both sides then weld, The sides are thinner, thinner is easier to weld but easier to burn.
Finally and most importantly, one of my friends folds over low carbon steel, he sandwichs things like circular saw blade chunks in the middle. Wire welds the top and bottom edges. He Beats the head into shape and calls it good. After the grinder hits it, you can hardly tell the difference. I don't recomend this. I'm stubborn and I refuse to take the easy way out.
Sorry for bieng so long winded. I work in front of a computer all week but I live when I'm in front of a forge. It's the only thing I've been able to do besides wood carving and playing music that that I find, brings out the true nature in a person.
I gotta go, I'm teaching a new blacksmith this morning. It's starting to catch on that teach basic blacksmithing for free.
Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado
Welding temperature is a tricky thing. Once the metal is shaped into the folded over form. One has to wait until just the right moment of when the metal becomes plastic. I guess that's the term. The surface of the metal looks like a bar of melting butter. Bubbles form and the surface becomes glassy. With burning googles one can see the metal become almost transparent. Dark shadows appear as colder areas in the metal.
There's no way someone could do that with one heat.
Regards
There's no way someone could do that with one heat.
Regards
paulvallandigham
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Lloyd: I learned that making some vent picks, where I wanted to make a closed loop at the end, so it would look like a house key. I flattened the end, and then bent the rod under heat, until the end closed and formed a loop, with the end touching the shank. It rebounded away from the shank when it cooled. It took another heat, and much hotter colors before I could heat weld the two together. I didn't have any borax, and was not sure I could weld at all. (TIP to new 'smiths: If you are going to experiment, you might as well do it on a little project, that you can throw away if you ruin it, without costing lots of time, or material.) This was soft steel from a coat hanger, BTW. I may still have that pick. I made several, and even let others talk me out of a couple at the club. I don't have the burn goggles, but am going to buy some before I do any more projects like that. Thank you for that tip. :thumbsup: Paul
bajabuc
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I found a guy who moved into an old sawmill...the mill was gone but the blades...the kind with 42" diameter 3/8" thick NON carbide tipped saw blades, ...the dang things were everywhere. tips broke and all kinds of problems. Said he, " sure...get 'em outta here before my kid pokes out an eye." I made knives and hatchets out of them for 6 years.
I used to use Ford 3/4 ton leaf springs but the saw blades are better. The handle is the hard part.
I used to use Ford 3/4 ton leaf springs but the saw blades are better. The handle is the hard part.
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