steel loads for 12 ga

[rivermanj]

Thanks for the help on the Choke for Pedersoli. Now I need some help on loads for ducks and geese. On my 10GA I have never had good velocity and the patterns have been fair, but not great. One reason I want a 12ga is I have been told it is easier to get the velocity up and they pattern better.

I may go to Bismuth or something similiar and just use lead load data - Opinions?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't expect to reach the same velocities you get with smokeless powder loads, using BP loads, in any gauge. And, Don't expect to be able to kill geese and ducks as far as you can using Smokeless powder loads, even with steel shot.

A cylinder bore BP shotgun is basically a 25-30 yards gun no matter what you shoot from it. Choke- Jug, or conventional muzzle chokes-- will give you another 5 yards, and possibly 10 yards. But, they won't make your BP gun a 50 yards shooter. Non-toxic shot loads vary with what kind of SHOT you choose to use. There is NO ONE load that will work well with kind of non-toxic shot. Steel shot, for instance, keeps it shape better going through choked barrels, but its so much lighter in weight, that you have to increase the Diameter of the Shot pellets you choose by at least 2 sizes( I prefer 3) to get anywhere near the same powder down range as you would with lead shot. In cartridge guns, you are limited in the amount of pellets of large sizes that you can put in the casings. You don't have that limit with BP Muzzle loaders, however. Check the link here for Ballistics Products and look at their latest offerings in Non-toxic shot. All of it is Expensive! But, If you choose to hunt ducks or geese, its the way to go. You can practice shooting lead shot loads, and other than doing test patterns with the non-toxic shot, save the rest for the hunting.

 

[Richard McCullough]

I am still a greenhorn on this blockpowder shotgun hunting, but I am hooked. I patterned the gun a couple months ago with 2F blackpowder 85grains by volume and 1 1/4oz of #5 hevi-shot and #4 ITX shot. the 4's pattern best at 40 yards but all would be killing shots on ducks and/or geese. I have a pound of 777 left that I started with the gun, so I am finishing it up, then going to blackpowder for good.

With 777 I am using 60 or 70 grains by volume with 1 1/4oz shot. 50 grains is my target 1 1/8oz shot load.
Note: This is with modified chokes in both barrels

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Do you prefer the Hevi Shot or the ITX?

 

[paulvallandigham]

I would still be leery of shooting Canada Geese with such loads at 40 yards and beyond. You might consider doing the test that Roundball suggests, and that is to take a good, STEEL, Tuna fish can, and set it out at 40 yds. Then fire a shot at it. If the shot penetrates the steel at that distance, then you can be assured that it will kill Geese at that range. I consider Roundball's test one of the simplest, and reasonable testing procedures any shooter can use to determine his maximum effective range with the kind of Non-toxic shot he choose.

I have seen steel shot bounce off Canada Geese, at 35 yards and beyond, in both BB, and #1 sizes. I have little faith in such shot beyond 30 yards. Oh, steel shot will drive right through the bird at closer ranges, but when you get out around 40 yards, or further, you only kill a bird if you are lucky enough to hit it in the head, or break its neck. I once shot a wounded goose in the head at virtually point blank range with steel shot, and it still was flopping around. I had to cut its entire head off to kill it. I have never had that kind of problem with lead shot.

I am hopeful that both Hevishot, and ITX(?) shot becomes more available and that the price lowers, so that It can be used in MLers. Because of the nature of how ITX is made, I doubt that the cost to produce is going to come down much, so I am looking to Hevishot to make it possible to use my MLer for goose hunting again.

 

[rivermanj]

Steel and killing power -
You are right and wrong about steel. I have shot literally thousands of ducks and geese with steel loads and while you have to increase your shot size to get similiar knockdown power and penetration it all comes down to velocity with steel. If we can get steel to exit at 1400 feet per second and pattern well at 40 yards we have a very effective duck and goose gun!
Most all of the current steel shot shells are exiting at 1400 to 1500 feet per second and with good chokes the patterns are awesome. So if the Canada goose didn't drop and it was a 45 yard shot - it ain't the steel!

So what I am looking for is someone that has some good data on loads using steel, or other non toxic shot, that work well.

Just like the 3 1/2 in 12 ga hoopla - having the extra payload in steel shot doesn't mean squat if the velocity isn't there!

So does anyone have a recipe that will punch out a 1 1/4 oz load at 1400 feet per second? If they do then I can shoot steel. If not then I will have to shoot Hevi shot or something similiar but I still need to get it to exit at 1150 or 1200 feet per second.

Jim

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jim: I have never seen or read of a BP load that will give 1400 fps velocity with a 1 1/4 oz load of steel shot. Getting 1200 fps is asking a lot from Black Powder. If you reduce the shot load to 1 oz., and increase the powder charge to 4, 5 or 6 drams( 110 grains, 137.5 grains, and 165 grains respectively), maybe you can get close.

The loading data I have( Hodgdon Data Manual #33)is for cylinder bore guns, not choked guns. The loads keep the velocity under the speed of sound, so you don't have the Transonic zone forces destroying the patterns. The secret to BP patterns with cylinder bore guns is to keep the velocity below the speed of sound. Choked BP shotguns are a relative new "thing".

If you find loading data for choked barrels, even for lead shot, please post it here, so I can find it, too. Even Lyman's second edition of its Black Powder Handbook doesn't list much in the way of loading data for shotguns, much less for non-toxic shot loads.

Lyman's Shotshell Reloading manual ( for modern shotshells) does contain down range velocity, pellet energy, time of flight, and drop in flight for distances from the muzzle to 20, 40, and 60 yards. This data can be used with BP loads to learn some information about a BP load. Only actually patterning the load will tell you if its useful for hunting with that particular gun. :thumbsup:

 

[rivermanj]

I have thought all along that the velocity thing was the problem. I have looked and looked and haven't found actual velocity tests for BP shotguns. 900 FPS is going to be pretty slow.

I once had a recipe for my 10 guage that was supposed to put out 1300 fps with 1 1/2 oz of payload. Killed a few ducks with it but the pattern was very inconsisitent. This was thru the 10 ga Pedersoli.

I am old enough to remember shooting Mallards at 40 yards all day with an ounce of lead thru my 20 guage. And I would guess the velocity was around 1100 fps.

I don't mind using the high dollar shot. My buddies think nothing of the $2.50 per shell on the Hevi Shot shells they use now and I am going to squeezing off a lot fewer shots than they are.

Jim

 

[fowlonthebrain]

You are entirely correct that the steel gets it's killing power from high velocity. Back when steel exited the bore at 1300fps it was not at all an impressive killer. It's amazing the difference that 150-200fps makes. That being said another nontoxic shot is probably your answer. I've had pretty good luck in the past with 1 1/4 oz of bismuth over 90gr of pyrodex (trying to finish up the last two pounds so I can go to black powder)on ducks over decoys, in my Pedersoli 10. Out to 30-35 yards, when you do your part, it looks like you've knocked'em out of the air with a 2x4 :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Speed of sound is 1150 fps, at sea level, although I use 1135 fps when calculating anything.

If you will look at the lyman shotshell Reloading manual, and go to the tables, you quickly see that all that extra velocity is lost in the first 20 yards. Really! That was the big shock to me( too!).

1400 fps at the muzzle works well when shooting RB, or slugs, but Not with shot. No matter the size, a RB has such a poor Ballistics coefficient, that it simply cannot and will not retain that velocity ( over the speed of sound) for very long traveling in air.

The big problem with high velocity loads is what you discovered- that is-- it plays hob with your patterns, regardless of choke used. The bast choke tubes I have found for good long range patterns are those that extend beyond the muzzle of the barrel, with long tapers to the choke, to choke the shot slowly. These are the chokes sold for Turkey shooting, and for the Crow shooters. The shorter, muzzle flush choke tubes reduce the diameter of the barrel too quickly to give good patterns with the fast loads beyond 45 yards. Briley has experimented with long chokes, and with back boring, and even with shallow straight rifling, to keep the shot cups from turning in the barrel, and giving a slow "spin" to the shot charge, all to improve shot pattern density for longer range shooting. Straight rifling was done more than 40 years ago by Perozzi and found to deliver 96% or better patterns at 40 yards. More recently, a friend of mine fired patterns with the newest "Olympic load", that is 24 grams of shot and 3 1/2 drams equ. of smokeless powder. The light shot charge gave the load high velocity(I don't recall the velocity off hand), and he noticed that he didn't have to lead the clay targets at all to break them. He got 98% patterns with his Remington Model 1100. He concluded that the shot just got to the paper so fast it didn't have time to spread out further. He attributed that solely to the small weight of the shot charge, and not to the plated shot used in the loads, or to the special long throat choke barrel he had on his gun. I saw his pattern papers and they ranged from about 93% to a couple that scored 98%- so it was no fluke.

 

[Richard McCullough]

Do you prefer the Hevi Shot or the ITX?

I like the ITX, but my hevi-shot is in #5 shot, yes I get a killing patter out of it, but the #4 ITX patterns better. I suspect #4 hevi-shot will do the same. I just bought the #4 sized ITX a couple months ago, and shot a few clays with it and patterned it. I am going after Snows on 2 and 3 Nov with it, so that will be a good test, then Swans after later on. I just ordered some #6 ITX for my upland hunting. Yes expensive but still a better price that hevi-shot at 129.99 for 7 pounds.

On a side note, this will be my first year waterfowl hunting with my 12ga, so it should be real fun.

 

[dbutch]

Richard..where did you find heavi-shot for 129.00 for 7 lbs. thanks...Dan

 

[Richard McCullough]

Richard..where did you find heavi-shot for 129.00 for 7 lbs. thanks...Dan

Sorry if I missled anyone. I get the ITX shot for 129.99 and the Hevi shot is 159.00 at Ballistic Products Inc.

 

[dbutch]

I have shot literally thousands of ducks and geese with steel loads

I assume this was with a center fire shotgun?

Use heavi-shot or as others have use Bismuth
keep your shots 35 yards or under and you will still kill ducks! Do not expect your BP shotgun to act like a 3 1/2 inch center fire ..It"s not going to happen you need to get that in your head! You will get more out of every hunt using BP- much more rewarding.With BP it's no longer a numbers game. Callem in close and shoot straight.

 

[dgold]

I have shot literally thousands of ducks and geese with steel loads

I assume this was with a center fire shotgun?

Use heavi-shot or as others have use Bismuth
keep your shots 35 yards or under and you will still kill ducks! Do not expect your BP shotgun to act like a 3 1/2 inch center fire ..It"s not going to happen you need to get that in your head! You will get more out of every hunt using BP- much more rewarding.With BP it's no longer a numbers game. Callem in close and shoot straight.

You are very correct here. My trouble is with the "shoot straight " part. Must be my shotgun's fault :grin:

 

[dbutch]

You are very correct here. My trouble is with the "shoot straight " part. Must be my shotgun's fault :grin: [/quote]


I have found while waterfowl hunting if we Ma-Ma-Missss it's not the end of the world,I do not put as much pressure on myself as I find myself doing with a big game hunt with less shooting opportunities..Just another reason to get your favorite smooth bore out for a day afield...Enjoy the Fall...Dan

 

[texcl]

I've shot 50 or so ducks this season all with steel and have lost another 30, back when I used lead we rarely had cripples, and this is with modern loads running 1500 fps inside 35 yards. If I were to use BP steel on ducks (and I might someday)I'd use at least BB shot and run it to at least 1200fps with as large of payload as the gun could handle. If I didn't have forty zillion ducks and geese where I live and only hunted once in a while I'd use heavier non-tox loads such as tungsten matrix shot. But we go through hundreds of shells a season. I'm in the process of rebuilding an original sxs and I'll try some steel loads in it if it doesn't fail my proofing and explode.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That "1500 fps" is Muzzle Velocity, not the velocity the shot is going at 35 yards! Most of that super-sonic velocity is lost in the first 20 yards. By the time you get the shot out to 35 yards, Velocity and Pellet energy explains why you have so many cripples. Its not that you are a bad shot.

Its this kind of experience that has driven the market to look for some other Non-toxic shot with a heavier weight, to carry more energy down range. Tungsten Matrix, and a couple of the other newer Non-toxic shots seem to fill the bill, AND are not harmful to older, steel barrels.

 

[dbutch]

Heavi-shot..#2's or #4's your loss rate will drop . More mass on target.. Even in my BP loads it tends to stone them....Just the facts!....Dan

 

[texcl]

35 is the max range I shoot them at most are considerably closer, I really dislike steel, I miss the lead days. I've decided that I'm going to buy some of that ITX shot and reload it for next year as I have a collection of old breachloader hammerguns that need to be taken out to the marsh. I will also use it in my percussion parker when I get her up and running, I still haven't proofer her, I'm pretty nervous about the damascus barrels but I'm going to remotely proof her then run 10 more field loads through her before I go on with the project. I've has so many cripples this year my lab has taught himself to dive after the ducks, he chased one duck over 300 yards across this lake behind my house before he got the sucker. Poor jack is so tired when we come back from hunting he won't come out of his kennel for 2 days. The migration is winding down here so we'll switch over to ruffies, sharpies, huns and pheasants soon.