Steel shot

[texcl]

I know this has been visited a couple of times, but after looking at my other non-toxic shot prices, I'm wondering if any of you have tried steel in jug bored 12 or 10ga. shotguns with modern steel shot wads, you would think it work as long as the wad held up, the barrels are modern steel and all. I'm planning on building a flintlock half-stock fowler in 10ga, but if components for 12 are out there that will work I would go that route. Anyone have experience?

 

[roundball]

The stiff shot cups required for steel shot go right on past the Jug Choke expansion chamber, eliminating the effects of a jug choke

 

[paulvallandigham]

I qam not surprised at Roundball's experience. I would not expect a Jug choke would have much, if any effect, on those stiff, hard, plastic shot cups needed to shoot steel shot. You need a fixed choke barrel, or a barrel with screw in choke tubes at the muzzle to affect steel shot in those cups. I found, in my modern gun, that a modified choke tube gave me full choke patterns using Steel shot in BB, and #1 steel shot sizes. Improved Modified gave full choke patterns with smaller size steel shot loads.

The real difficulty using these cups and steel shot in any MLER is getting those cups into the barrel Thru the choke! The bottom of the cups don't want you to get those cups down past the choke. They shoot OUT fine, but going in is a fight.

For those reasons, I don't recommend using Steel shot in a MLER, unless you are going to accept the range limitations of a cylinder bore shotgun. You will see a bit of tightening of the pattern firing steel shot out of an cylinder bore barrel, because the steel does not distort in the barrel, and the stiff cup delays the separation of the shot from the cup once it leaves the muzzle longer than a standard shotcup does. But, we are talking about Improved Cylinder vs. Cylinder Bore patterns, for the most part. Some loads may tighten up to Skeet 2 or Skeet 1 patterns. Every little bit helps of course, as you can extend the killing range of a given shot size pellet and pattern by 2-5 yards for every increment in pattern performance. Mostly, with a cylinder bore shotgun, you want to use more shot than what modern gun shooters can load in their casings. The extra shot helps to fill the pattern with more pellets, and that gives you more range and killing power at the longer ranges. I still consider any MLing shotgun to be a 40 yard gun MAX, altho birds have been killed at further distances than this with such guns and steel shot. I just don't expect the average bird hunter to be capable of placing his pattern on game birds at ranges over 40 yds. with any confidence.

 

[texcl]

Now are ml 12ga & 10ga barrels the same internal diameter as their modern counter part so that modern wads will work in them or are they a little tighter? I can deal with cylinder choke patterns if that is the worse thing that comes of it, I hunt over decoys. The jug choke will come in handy on sharptailed grouse and pheasants. I looked at nice shot but for $60 per kilo, that wouls be pretty pricey. Boy, and I thought bismuth was expensive.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't count on any dimension in reproduction ML shotgun barrels! Measure First, using a good caliper. Nominal 12 ga. bores should be .729, but you find variations from smaller to larger. The 12 ga. wads you buy for modern 12 ga. shotshells, are actually close to 13 gauge- because they have to fit down inside the plastic/paper casings. The Brass casings sold for replica BP shotguns, using BP loads- for Cowboy Action Shooting, etc., can be 11 gauge, because the case wall is so much thinner than a modern plastic shotgun casing.

Do NOT assume you can use modern reloading components in your Mler shotguns.

 

[roundball]

I looked at nice shot but for $60 per kilo, that wouls be pretty pricey. Boy, and I thought bismuth was expensive.

BUT...it is outstanding...no shot cup required...an exact replacement for lead so you can do your load development & pattern testing with the same size lead shot, then just fire a couple of final test insurance shots with the Nice Shot itself and go duck hunting.

And if you compare the cost of a modern shotshell that is typically used for duck hunting today, a Nice Shot duck load in a bare bore muzzleloader is actually cheaper.

 

[BrownBear]

I know this has been visited a couple of times, but after looking at my other non-toxic shot prices, I'm wondering if any of you have tried steel in jug bored 12 or 10ga. shotguns with modern steel shot wads, you would think it work as long as the wad held up, the barrels are modern steel and all. I'm planning on building a flintlock half-stock fowler in 10ga, but if components for 12 are out there that will work I would go that route. Anyone have experience?

My serious beef with steel shot in muzzleloaders, no matter the choke, wad, pattern or anything else is velocity. I use the stuff in my modern guns and actually like it. But that's based on driving it as fast as possible. As velocity diminishes, so does performance. And you just can't drive it fast enough to do any good from a muzzleloader. I'm talking 1500fps or higher MVs for best results on waterfowl. And with a ML you're doing good to get much above 1100 fps. That's really effective with lead or the heavy subs, but not with steel.

 

[texcl]

you would have to use bigger shot to compensate and of course it would not be as effective as lead. I use the modern steel myself and go through at least a case a year and kill lots of ducks and geese with it. If I shot 200 nice shot loads it would cost me $300 if I got 40 loads a kilo, but I would most likely get less and that is just for the shot. Where as I pay $89 a case of 250 shells for steel, if I can use steel in a fowler the same amount of shot is $17, so you would save a bunch of dinero, if you could make it work effectively. I might have to stick to my benelli for waterfowl if I can't find a cost effective solution, and just use the fowler for grouse, turkey and pheasant. Sure would be a shame though.

 

[BrownBear]

Agreed, but my concern is that with the low velocity of a ML, you'll have to go to such large shot for killing power that pattern density will be south of the borderline. It would be real easy to use shot big enough to deliver clean kills at 30 or more, but with a pattern so open you couldn't hit reliably. No perfect solutions anywhere, but lots of testing and compromises.

 

[dbutch]

Brown Bear you nailed it!

the heavier the non-toxic shot the better!
Best choices are Heavi-shot or Nice shot

If you are going to jug choke your only option would be Nice-shot. you could use a thin wad cup to gain yardadge in your pattern. I have patterned with both types and found that Heavi-shot patterned better in that gun. you will need to work on loads ,don't be afraid to try a number of wad -card combinations till you perfect it.I have patterns and wad combinations if your interested.Non-toxic loads in a muzzle-loader requires time and money.

did some math- nice shot= 2.80 per 1.5 oz. load
Heavi-shot=1.80 per 1.5 oz. load
add .15 per wad

 

[texcl]

I saw that midway is selling BPI ITX Non-Toxic Shot ($127 for 7 pounds), when I googled it I came up with a product that is soft and weighs the same as tungsten. It's a bit cheaper than nice shot to boot. I might buy some before they run out and give it a whirl. Still way more expensive than I'm used to($1.15 a round just for shot). Guess I'll just have to go bp fowling on speacial occasions :shake: .

 

[fowlonthebrain]

The other thing to cosider when comparing the cost of modern duck loads with muzzleloading duck loads is that when the flock comes in there is usually three shots from the Benelli and only one from your half stock fowler. I've shot 1 1/4 oz bismuth loads from a Pedersoli ten for ducks for a few years now, and at the end of the day it's always cheaper than a day shooting steel loads out of my 870. :wink: When I started shooting ducks modern steel shot loads were going 1300fps, and I had to use BBs to do the job affectively. IMHO i wouldn't want to try the same shot going 2oofps slower

 

[BrownBear]

Good point on the number of shots, FOB. In all my years of hunting ducks with a 12 ga ML double, my biggest day was 13 shots. That was all in a morning and I felt like I'd spent the whole time flapping my elbows and stroking the ram rod. Admittedly that was in the good old days of lead shot, but in another sense it was my worst day of shooting. It took that many shots to drop a limit of seven.

Another thing to consider when waterfowling with a ML. You don't NEED to be able to make 40 yard shots. Just move your decoys to within the effective range of whichever gun you're shooting. Or if you're jump shooting, sneak a little lower! :rotf:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I saw that midway is selling BPI ITX Non-Toxic Shot ($127 for 7 pounds), when I googled it I came up with a product that is soft and weighs the same as tungsten. It's a bit cheaper than nice shot to boot. I might buy some before they run out and give it a whirl. Still way more expensive than I'm used to($1.15 a round just for shot). Guess I'll just have to go bp fowling on special occasions :shake: .

Be careful with bore protection for ITX shot. With due respect to Ballistic Products, I have never seen specifics from them on how hard it actually is, just how hard it is not - "Like lead and bismuth, ITX does not register above 27.0 on this scale of hardness." That 27.0 R.C is something like 250 Brinell. The only place I've found the hardness specified is in a magazine article Guns & Ammo magazine

According to BP, ITX measures 40 HRF on the Rockwell "F" scale. That same scale measures magnum lead shot as 10 HRF, steel shot at 99 HRF and barrel steel at 100 HRF. Not having a Rockwell "F" scale tester handy to confirm it, I'll take BP's word when it comes to actual numbers. What I was able to do, however, is use pliers to measure the relative hardness of ITX against various other types of shot. By mashing an ITX shot against another type of shot of the same diameter, the softer piece of shot will compress first.

and

Though ITX is "soft," it contains tungsten, which is hard and can be very abrasive. Think of a pellet with a sandpaper surface going down your bore. Because of that abrasiveness, BP ITX loads all call for heavy-duty wads much like you'd use for steel shot to protect your bore from scoring. And as I do with steel shot handloads, I add the extra insurance of a thin mylar wrap to the inside of the shotcup before adding the shot. Mylar is a thin, pliable plastic that's tougher than a tax collector's heart and all but eliminates the chance of a pellet finding its way through a wad slit where it can contact and damage the bore. As the shot cup opens, the mylar wrap simply uncoils from the shot column, so it doesn't affect the pattern.

I have also found this on another board (posted last September):

Talked to a guy at Ballistic Products today who said they wouldn't have any of the new ITX shot to sell for at least a few more weeks- read early October. They don't have data worked up for it yet, but he was adamant in telling me it'll have to be used with their BPS wad. "Regular" wads don't stand up to the abuse. Bummer, 'cause I was using Remington RP-12's for Bismuth loads (Hodgdon loading data). At least one can use "regular" wads with the nice shot (completely interchangeable with lead).

Add to this, the density of ITX is better than steel, but no better than Bismuth shot, and Bismuth is usable in muzzleloaders without shot/bore protection. So.... altogether, it looks like ITX is of limited utility for muzzleloaders.

Nice shot, on the other hand, is 14.9-16.0 Brinell (about like wheel weight alloy) and about the same density, and is usable without bore protection ( http://ecotungsten-niceshot.blogspot.com/2007/11/reinventing-lead.html ). Like ITX, it is swadged from a tungsten-iron alloy powder suspended in a matrix - in this case, tin - and afterwards given a tin coating. Others besides Roundballhave reported successful use in traditional muzzleloader loads.

BTW, Bismuth/Tin shot is available on from a shooter in another forum for $21/lb for quantities of

 

[BrownBear]

I'm guessing that the heavy steel-shot shotcups helped counter the tendency of heavy powder charges to open the patterns.

Joel

That jibes with my experience in the lead shot days of yore, even with the softer shot and thinner shot cups. With cylinder bore barrels I was able to regulate patterns fairly reliably by trimming the length of the petals on WAA Red shot cups, along the lines of an article I read at the time.

A stiffer shot cup along with a harder shot would certainly improve the patterns I achieved. But for my uses I'm back to my pattern density concern with larger shot. I guess there's going to be no answer that satisfies me till I try it myself.

 

[texcl]

I hunt 3 times a week or so during duck season and it is pretty rare when I have to fire more than once at a duck, the exception is when the duck is crippled and I have to dispatch it, so the dogs can catch up to it (crippling is a serious weakness of steel). Up here in ND there are so many ducks we only take shots within 30 yards. Last year we timed the ducks coming in and averaged the # in the groups and we ended up with 7 ducks coming in every 3 minutes for an hour straight, ( that's how long it took to limit 3 guys, the hardest thing was ID'ing hens since it was foggy and the drakes aren't in full plumage when our season starts, that day the average distance we took ducks was 20 yards, when we limited and were pulling our spread the ducks would come in and land in the water near us and then take back off again, it was a good hunt. I'm really cheap and pass on long shots, hense the discussion (the cheapness that is). Thanks for the bismuth link I'll look into that, like I said earlier though, I might not use my fowlers for everyday use if the prices don't come down, it is really ridiculious, I could see paying it if you only hunt a couple times a year, but not if you hunt the amount we do, for meat.

 

[texcl]

The article that guy linked to about making home made bismuth shot was really interesting, why aren't any of us doing that?

 

[roundball]

"...making home made bismuth shot..."

When steel was "the" non-toxic alternative, I heard of GWs carrying a magnet in their pocket to test for what guys had in their shells. Whether they did or didn't it certainly would make sense.....for steel.


But...how do they test for these other non-toxics that are not magnetic? Does a modern hunter get by if he has a box end flap in his pocket that matches the logo on the shells in his gun?

And if so, what does the muzzleloader hunter do?

Last year when I geared up with NiceShot thinking I'd get a unique opportunity to shoot some geese the same way I'd shoot a turkey...I made up my mind the only thing I knew to do was carry the little $75 box of NiceShot...(not much larger than a woman's makeup compact)...in a ziploc bag my vest with the sales receipt and hope the GW knew about NiceShot.

Guess I need to Email our Wildlife Dept and see what they say...

 

[fowlonthebrain]

Our hunts are a lot different here in Southern Illinois. Lots more hunters and lots less ducks. I can see where that would make a difference. I love 20 yd decoying shots, but usually there are too many idiots around you for very many birds to finish. I wish I had the kind of shooting that would make the cost more of a concern.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

... I don't recommend using Steel shot in a MLER, unless you are going to accept the range limitations of a cylinder bore shotgun. ... But, we are talking about Improved Cylinder vs. Cylinder Bore patterns, for the most part. Some loads may tighten up to Skeet 2 or Skeet 1 patterns.

Has anyone tried steel shot in conjunction with Runnball's famous Cotton-Tail Drogue Shot Concentrator (TM) (A.K.A. tampon shotcup (also (TM)))? http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/219111/post/546024/#546024
I haven't had the time to perform the experiment yet. Just to compound things, a 16ga wad only holds 7/8oz of steel shot, so I'm not expecting much range even with a tight pattern - MAYBE 30-35yds with Fe #2 or #3 for ducks, if I'm lucky AND I can get the patterning at 1300-1330fps. If this does work, I'll still stick with BiSn #4s for for geese.

Joel