Stiff frizzen & shattering flints

[Sean Gadhar]

Hello Chaps,

First visit to this forum, and I'm hoping you can lend some experience to me.

I have recently purchased a reproduction baker rifle to use in my re-enactment group (5/60th royal American rifles), but I'm experiencing a few problems:

1) each time I pull the trigger, bits of the flint and flying off and chipping away. I'm getting sparks for two or three hits but then nothing after

Any feedback or advice is warmly welcomed, and I hope you can put smile on a slightly cranky englishmans face!

Thanks

I think your roll is to fast :wink: You need to slow your roll :rotf:

Really, I get your upset but this post has been in flintlocks for what 22 hours???? and now you say

"I've given up now and shall be returning the rifle for a refund from the supplier :'( "

:nono: Slow it down a bit, show us the photo that is asked for.

" I've taken the frizzen off and polished it up and and filed the bottom of it away (where it touches the spring)."

Stop filing. Did you call the builder first? Is it likely he will take back a lock that a 1st timer has been filing on?

I think this is tantamount to banging on a carburetor with a hammer, while the mechanic you are talking to is still questioning the octane of your fuel, & if the air filter is in backwards.

All just IMO :hmm: but I think that your horse is wayyyyyyyyy back there far behind your cart.

 

[tenngun]

Every one is thinking about your frizzen and its hardness. I agree you should talk to local experinced shooters. Also try flipping your flint over. Some locks just shoot best with an upside down flint. Although I think we should try to be as hc as we can, some locks work better with sawn flints(yes my finger burns for having typed that, and even now I can hear the demons of hell laughing)You may need a slighty shorter or longer flint. When the lock is at 1/2 cock there should be a small space,but some guns work better with what looks to be too short.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There's a lot more to it than soft frizzens and heavy springs folks...,

Here's some possible problems,

Angle of flint impact on frizzen
Incorrect shape of frizzen cam
rough frizzen cam
rough surface of frizzen spring
rough interior surface on frizzen bridle and/or lock face
Interior edge of frizzen cover rubbing barrel
Frizzen too hard
Frizzen too soft
Cock screw imacting top of frizzen

Just to name a few....

IF the flint hits the frizzen (hard or soft) at the wrong angle, (and it sounds like that since he's getting flint chips) then it's likely that the innitial impact is causing the frizzen to rebound or bounce as the cock moves downward... so you get a smack, the frizzen loses contact with the flint, then the frizzen moves backwards, and the flint smacks it again, when it should be a impact and a scrape. :shocked2:

If you can remove material from the cam with a file, the that part isn't hardened. Stop filing until you can talk to someone who can help and will work wth you.

Polishing should be done with a stone. The geometry of the flint to frizzen needs to be addressed. The flint should be striking to scrape, not bash. Sometimes a bit of leather at the rear of the flint improves striking.

He and the rest of the folks are right about the polishing and the flint but I'd do the following corrections in this order...

1) Place a small, wooden matchstick under the rear end of your flint in the cock jaws, just where the flint meets the jaw screw to pivot the front edge of the flint downward. See if there is any improvement, even the slightest...this will give you a clue as to what's going on. You will want to also try a couple of match sticks to see if that's better than a singe stick. (THis is temporary for diagnosis only)

2) Polish with a stone or with some baby oil and 600 grit emory paper the top of the frizzen spring and the cam of the frizzen. DON'T file the cam on the frizzen, until you have first tried polishing. Sometimes all that's needed is polishing and filing can easily create another problem. Just get the parts shiny, and be gentle. At this point you are trying to reduce friction, NOT change the shape of anything or to thin anything down.

You should be either getting better sparks at this point and there should be a visible scraping marks on the frizzen. IF you get gouges, the frizzen is too soft. IF you get impact marks without any connecting scrape marks, the flint is bouncing back and forth, called "rebounding". If you get very faint scrape marks on the frizzen, then it's too hard.

Let us know what happens and we can go forward from there.

LD

 

[Steveyd20]

Thank you thats all great advice shall give it a go - once I hear back from you guys after seeing those photos.

I did say I was giving up but I was at a low point yesterday and was gettin frustrated, but hey today is a new day!

I havent filed much at all off the frizzen where it makes contact, just smoothed it out and polished the two points of contact and applied some grease. I think the frizzen spring is to far away from the lock plate and is causing the frizzen to not sit flat which is causing issues for the flint hitting the frizzen. I'm also worried by the amount of scratches the frizzen is making on the barrel by the touch hole:

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[Rifleman1776]

Pics 'sorta' helpful.
That frizzen looks mighty soft to me. Part of the problem.
I would say on that honkin' big military lock stiff/stout springs would be expected.
But the angle of contact of the flint on the frizzen is definitely in need of being corrected. How to do that, I'll leave up to the gunsmiths here to work out. Heating and bending the cock might be an option. I've been there and done that but am not eekspurt enuf to advise on that. That is a production gun, sold by the jillions, I'm sure it can be made to work.

 

[MSW]

your photos show a great deal that was not properly addressed in the written descriptions.

I'm not entirely sanguine about the marks slightly above and forward of the touch hole: it appears that the frizzen may actually be rubbing (or has rubbed) against the surface of the barrel. While I would hesitate to put the entire blame on this flaw, it could not but help to exacerbate your problem. If you have the proper tools to disassemble the lock (a special vise is needed to remove feather springs and mainsprings from their respective places: here's a link: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1038/1/TOOL-VISE you should be able to get one closer to where you live ... do not use a 'vise grip' or similar pliers- you will damage your spring and it will inevitably fail at the most inopportune time possible ... don't ask me how I know ... ) then you should try taking the frizzen out of the lock, putting some soot or lampblack on the edge closest to the barrel, and reassembling it and see if some of the soot transfers to the barrel where you're getting the rub marks. If this is the case, you might do well to contact the maker and inquire as to a replacement (at their expense).

Since I have you taking things apart, ensure that the frizzen pivots freely in the mount: there should be no binding up of any kind. The frizzen should flop about under its own weight if the gun is tipped muzzle- down. If this is not the case, it a condition which should be remedied before other problems are addressed.

I am concerned about the apparent misalignment of the feather spring, as well. It should fit more or less flat (that is, even and flat with the surface of the lockplate). The big gap signals (in my mind, anyway) some underlying problem: a pretty serious lack of any sense of craftsmanship if nothing else.

Please understand that I'm not trying to 'take potshots' at you or your gun, but these are some pretty serious problems which will result in F&A (Frustration and Abandonment) of an otherwise very satisfying hobby if they are allowed to go untreated ... then there's the cost of flints, which is, at the present time, unnecessarily high, both on an overall basis and on your particular situation. If possible, I would get the gun to a gunsmith or at least a very experienced shooter of flintlocks (mind you, there are many gunsmiths who can do great work on center fire weapons and don't know diddly flit about muzzle loaders).

I would avoid, for now, the temptation to grind or file away at various parts of the lock. Polishing can do no harm, except to spend time with your gun, which is never a waste, but removing metal in the wrong place can turn a lock into a paperweight in pretty short order.

Good luck with your project. Please do keep us posted on how things are turning out, and remember, patience is a *&%@ing virtue.

 

[Steveyd20]

Thanks for your response - much appreciated.

Frizzen spring removed and frizzen flops around freely and doesn't seem to be touching the barrel now which is good.

Spring still doesn't sit flat against the plate which is annoying. I have contacted the supplier and informed them of the problem I am hoping that I can get it remedied.

I've polished the frizzen spring (where it meets the frizzen), and also the frizzen nib where it meets the spring.

Is there anything else I could do - or any other photos I could put up?

 

[nwtradegun]

I maybe wrong but it looks like and india made lock and gun. if so that's the probably what is it. cheap scavenged metal. you can send the lock to flintlock repair. they preform miricales with them.

 

[bpd303]

When you say the frizzen "flops around", is there side play. In your last picture it appears the feather spring is cocking the frizzen into contact with the barrel. If so this needs to be addressed. I would also reverse the flint in the cock. I always install them with the hump to the rear so the top jaw gets a better purchase on the flint and it may change the angle to a more downward slant.

 

[Steveyd20]

Yes it's an Indian made lock.

The frizzen spring is not sitting flat against the lock plate (as per my first photo on first page of this thread). The frizzen isn't sitting straight to me it seems to be leaning towards the barrel.
What's the best way to remedy this?

 

[dikman]

Nice photos, Stevey. The frizzen looks to me like it's slightly skewed (probably a casting issue, I would think) but in the side view with the flint it appears to me that the flint is going to hit the frizzen awfully high up (certainly higher than my Pedersoli). I would be interested in what the more experienced folk here think - does that cause any problems?

 

[azmntman]

 

[azmntman]

Smash vs scrapes I meant! :redface:

 

[Steveyd20]

I think you were right my friend - I've put some leather under the back of the flint (under it) and the flint tilts downward more so now, and seems to scrape rather than smash against the frizzen.

End result is more sparks, and a lot less pieces of flint flying everywhere!

 

[Don Steele]

BINGO...!!
Shim the back of the flint to improve the angle at which it impacts, harden (or re-face) the frizzen, and most, if not all of your problems will be sufficiently addressed for your purpose.

 

[MacRob46]

Is that an Indian-made gun? I looked and maybe I missed it, but I never did see where you commented on who made it, versus who sold it to you.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah MSW is correct with the rubbing. It's not the only problem, for if it was you'd complain about the frizzen being very tough to close. Plus the marks on the frizzen look like too soft a piece of metal, and either the cock is a tad too tall, or the top of the frizzen is a tad too short. :shocked2:

I seriously wonder about the lock, even if India made, for the "Tower" inscription is semi-circular, and all of the India made guns from the three importers with which I am familiar "tower" is straight.

You might be better off not fighting with the lock and sending the whole gun back for a replacement. India made guns normally cannot have another lock simply drop-in, so the whole thing should go back.

LD

 

[Steveyd20]

I'd like to give hardening the frizzen a go as apparently the frizzen isnt hardened when they let the gun be sold.....

Would this method work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKKhIOx707M

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'd like to give hardening the frizzen a go as apparently the frizzen isnt hardened when they let the gun be sold.....

Would this method work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKKhIOx707M[/quote]

You still haven't answered if it is India made. If it is, there is a possibility the mystery metal the frizzen is made of will not harden. As suggested, facing with a good known steel might be the only path to salvation.

 

[MSW]

hate to burst your bubble, but ...

I have heard of several variations on this method, although I will admit (by way of disclaimer) that I have never actually tried any of them.

Does this mean that I have serious misgivings about their adequacy and efficacy?

Yes, it does. Now, I am not a metallurgist, and I have no knowledge of chemistry except that you can only get so much salt into a glass of water, but I am by nature an empiricist, and if you don't show me something which will work, I probably won't try it.

Look carefully at the very last bit of the video: the lock functions normally when the fellow pulls the trigger, but

where are the sparks??

there ought to be enough sparks with a lock that size to start a bonfire, but I see nothing. Hence, the method does not work, except to burn up a good bit of otherwise perfectly good leather. If you have your heart set on doing this, I can't see the harm (except to the leather and the tin can), but I would most strongly recommend that you do this (a) outdoors and (b) upwind of anyone and anything you don't want to 'offend,' since most of us find the smell of burning leather off- putting.

This is most probably an India- made lock, which puts you in a good-news-bad-news situation. The good news being that you probably didn't pay a very great deal for it. (Of course, 'a good deal' is a pretty relative term, but I sincerely hope that you didn't plonk down a zillion pounds sterling for it). The bad news is that, as an India made lock, there is very little by way of standardization, and there is minimal quality control, so your lock might be made of good steel, or it might be 'mysterymetal' and you really have little way of knowing. I would hazard a guess that the frizzen is mysterymetal.

now: a note on the mechanics of the spark, and forgive ... ff ff ff

the spark you see is actually a little shaving of steel which has been removed from the face of the frizzen. this tiny bit of steel has been shaved away from the frizzen by the sharp edge of the flint, and it glows white hot as a result of the friction which was generated as it was removed from the frizzen face. I don't know why, but this can be achieved by steel and not other metals, so if you don't have steel, you don't get sparks (at least, you don't get very many sparks on a reliable basis).

thus, if you don't have good steel in the frizzen, you don't get good sparks.

If for some reason you are not inclined to require the replacement of the lock in the entire, I think that there are two possible options. You may be able to re-harden the face of the frizzen with some stuff called Kasenite or somesuch ... there are several variations ... here's a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tlsq2ESQz0

as you can see, the part you want to harden is heated, the magic glop is applied, the part is reheated, then quenched, and there you go... this looks good in theory, but as with the leather, I've never tried it. I cannot say how deep the hardening would go, or how long it would last on the surface of your frizzen, but the skeptic in me cries out that you'd be 'at it again' in fairly short order... again, I've never tried it myself and I may well be way off base. additionally, I have no idea what is in this stuff, or whether you are allowed to have it.

the other possibility to consider is getting yourself a bit of hacksaw blade or other similar material and grind it to the appropriate size, then heat and bend it so it forms the curve of the frizzen face. Silver solder this to the frizzen, and you might get better result than what you now see. since you now have the lock of frustration and failure, I see no loss if this doesn't work, but my first choice would be to demand a replacement.

now: a personal note:

many of us don't want to 'make a fuss' and I think that this is wrong: if you don't make a fuss, if you don't stick up for yourself and demand that whoever sold you this lock make it right, you are not only separated from your hard earned money, but you actually encourage the production of badly made goods by some arrogant fellow who has learned that people will accept whatever shoddy goods he cobbles together in some pest-hole of a sweat shop because they're 'too polite' to demand a refund...

OK- -that's my rant ... let me climb down off my soapbox before I fall and get hurt...

good luck with your project ... soon, I hope, you will make good smoke!