Still getting a clack...bang!

[hanshi]

Zonie already brought this up, but I will mention this again and emphasize a couple of points.

A flintlock is roughly around 4X slower than a caplock. I have to really concentrate to notice the hesitation; but when I do, it's IS quite noticeable. I keep my concentration on the front sight and the shooting process so it normally takes a hangfire to grab my attention.

My recommendation is that you focus your attention on the front sight and the trigger. Ignore completely the lock and flash. IMHO you're actually listening for and trying to detect a "clack-bang". My rifles usually seem almost "instant firing" to me simply because flintlock is virtually all I ever shoot. I know they're not but I don't listen for the hesitation. All the liners in my guns are 1/16" and "dead reliable".

 

[Sidney Smith]

It could also be that the OP having not much experience with Flintlocks, and listening to people talking about how fast their guns ignite, formed an idea in his mind ithat is not playing out in real life. He then sees an issue. The solution could be as simple as getting better acquainted with his firearm. He just may then realize there is actually nothing wrong at all.

 

[Sparkitoff]

Well, I am not sure if something is wrong or not. That is why I asked. If I can do all of the little "tricks" and something improves that is good. If it stays exactly the same its not so bad either. I don't hear a whoosh. Admittedly, I don't have great hearing and I always wear earplugs when shooting. What I notice is the clack of the cock hitting the frizzen and then the rifle fires. Most of the time this seems to be a continuous reaction, but sometimes I perceive a distinct pause between the clack and the bang. The lock sparks the same on or off the rifle. There are many yellowish-orange sparks. Not as many or as dramatic as some videos I have seen, but the amount is very consistent (visually). The rifle is very accurate off the bench and I tend to shoot off sticks in the woods because of its 9 pound + weight. I am not flinching and I am staying on the sights (or I wouldn't have the consistent accuracy). From verbiage and videos I just expect a quicker ignition. Honestly, I have NEVER seen another flintlock fired in person other than my own previous one. If I am doing all the things I can to contribute to the fast and efficient firing, I will at least be more confident and satisfied with the rifle.

 

[arcticap]

I really enjoy watching this video.
He's using a French amber flint in a Traditions Mountain Rifle.

 

[Zonie]

I think it's videos like that one that gives a false idea about how fast a flintlock actually fires.
I don't know if the speed of the video was modified to speed it up (easily done) or he just chose to show a short clip out of many firings, where the gun actually fired that quickly.

As I've said, I've shot a number of flintlocks over 15 years and I don't recall ever seeing one of my own or of anyone else's flintlock fire that fast.

 

[russellshaffer]

Zonie mentioned Pletcher's experiments - here is a link to his pan priming tests. It makes for very interesting reading.
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for posting that link to Pletcher's timing.
If you notice in a lot of his tests it took about .04 seconds to fire.
While that doesn't seem like much, if I crank some numbers out that we can relate to, a car traveling at 60 miles an hour will travel a distance of 42.24 inches in .04 seconds.

(For those wondering, a car traveling at 60 miles an hour is covering a distance of 88 feet per second. 88 fps X 12 = 1056 inches per second. 1056 X .040 = 42.24" )

 

[Col. Batguano]

I wonder if maybe a smaller touch hole wouldn't yield a shorter barrel dwell time? With a bigger hole the main charge has to build up more pressure to start moving the ball down bore. With a smaller one it will start moving sooner. It's not just the ignition we care about, but the whole dwell time thing.

 

[Tom Compton]

Slightly soft frizzens and slightly dull flints don’t produce as many or as hot sparks as optimum. I had a half the edge of a flint break off. Keeping the remainder of the edge real sharp allowed finishing a target before replacing it. This lock was tuned and frizzen hardened by craftsman. The touch hole is 1/16” and the pan is full (more heat imo). Watch Pletch’s videos above there is no such thing as a fuse effect.

 

[Tom Compton]

Lock geometry is important. An easy tweak is to change how the flint is mounted in the jaws. Bevel up or down closer or further to the frizzen.

 

[Tom Compton]

Oh yea. Patent breech or anti chamber. If the opening to the anti chamber is too small and or has a shoulder then the main charge may be kept away from the touch hole occasionally. Try bumping the side of the barrel with the heel of your hand or bump the stock on the ground once or twice. If this works pull the breech plug, ream a little, taper the opening and while there polish internally (it’ll make cleaning easier).

 

[Sidney Smith]

When I shoot my flintlocks, on many occasions I'll get fast lock times and sometimes a slow one or even a hangfire, especially when the gun starts to get sooty or the flint starts to get dull or dirty etc. What I'm saying is, you're not always going to get the same reaction from the lock. That's just the nature of the beast. Theyre not like modern guns with modern ammunition where everything is uniform and goes bang the same way each time. In a Flintlock, the simple action of priming the pan can cause a difference in lock time due to the shooter not using the exact amount of priming powder each time.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I would try omitting the pipe cleaner as I suspect it may be keeping the powder too far from the vent. After pouring the charge down the barrel, give the side a slap to encourage the powder into the cone of the vent liner. Everything else sounds pretty good. If the touch hole is already 1/16", I would not enlarge it any further.

 

[arcticap]

I think it's videos like that one that gives a false idea about how fast a flintlock actually fires.
I don't know if the speed of the video was modified to speed it up (easily done) or he just chose to show a short clip out of many firings, where the gun actually fired that quickly.

As I've said, I've shot a number of flintlocks over 15 years and I don't recall ever seeing one of my own or of anyone else's flintlock fire that fast.

I think he may have reduced the tension of a spring when he tuned up his lock, but I did't think there was any hanky panky with the video.
Perhaps it's because the video is a close up.
Nonetheless, here's another video of a Traditions PA Flintlock with a caption that states:

"Traditions PA Pellet Flintlock with 20 gr ffg black powder & 2 X 50gr triple seven pellets anf FFFFg in the flash pan.
Works ok with pellets as long as you put a little black powder behind them."



Here's 3 shots with a TC Firestorm in less than 1 minute:
The last shot looked like there was a delay but the first two seemed very fast.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Not read all but my take is.....
All flintlocks are different slightly.
Some need large flash holes and some don't. Some need a lot charge, some less ( to compensate for flash hole diameter).
Some frizzens are soft, some to hard.
Some like flint bevel up, some down.

All need a SOLID pricking! NO pipe cleaner cuts it.

After that it's down to the nut holding the darn thing!
Carry on.

B.

 

[Kansas Jake]

You guys have covered most of the variables. My flint locks are not as fast as my cap locks, but still pretty fast and I do notice a slight but almost instantaneous ignitions and as Sidney noted variable ignition. If it was me, and I was getting reliable ignition without hang fires or flashes in the pan, I would not open up the touch hole. That is just me. I would work on other things first.

 

[satwel]

Do you run a patch down the bore after each shot? You could be pushing fouling into the vent, especially if the patch is wet. When I started shooting flintlocks, I thought I had to wipe the bore after each shot to assure accuracy. I was frustrated with problems of flash-in-the-pans and hang fires. When I stopped wiping after every shot, not only did the hang fires stop, I was surprised at how fast the rifle would go off. My scores went up dramatically.

Also, I think a previous poster mentioned this, make sure your vent liner does not protrude into the bore. That also causes fouling to collect.

 

[azmntman]

My first check would be the liner being too long. I wouldn't drill the touch hole bigger but as a last resort. My only flinter (so far) is a traditions and I have not done a thing to it and "delay" is normally acceptable to me (I have gotten used to flash and have good follow through so maybe I just dont notice it?...I do notice when the delay is a tad longer though, usually a dull flint).

I plan to check some things next time out as I know it could be faster. I cannot imagine a L&R well tuned! My cheapo traditions sees to work OK, I am playing with learning to knapp now. Good luck and keep us posted. when ya find the issue and report ya could help alot of us less experienced flint guys, I could see my self easily going mostly all flint soon when I get time to play with em more, LOVE shooting it!

 

[Sparkitoff]

So far I have determined a couple of things. The touch-hole is between 1/16 and 5/64th. Not quite 5/64 but very close. The thread depth matches the barrel thickness so it is not protruding past the barrel. The sparks appear the same with the flint bevel up or down as far as can be discerned visually. If I load without plugging the touch-hole and then push a solid pick in I can feel powder move and none comes back out of the hole with the pick. More experimenting as I get off the keyboard....

 

[Sidney Smith]

Open the frizzen, and lower the cock as if the gun has just been fired. Lay the gun on a table with the lock up. Note where the flint is pointing in relation to the touch hole. Optimum position is having the flint edge pointing close to or directly at the touch hole. If it's not the turn the flint over. I've noticed a difference in ignition when my flint does not point at the touch hole as I've described. Yes it still goes off but there is a definite lag in time as compared to the position of the flint I mentioned.