Stock Cast off

[Free Range]

Couple questions. I have been shooting modern guns most of my life. Just an old country boy that hunts, and somehow I've never heard of cast off. Question one, do production guns have castoff? Like say a run of the mill model 700 or 10/22 or even a browning overunder shotgun? Question two, I'm wanting to build a flintlock, from a kit, would the kits out there today, say the under 1000$ ones have castoff in the stocks? question 3 is a follow up question, is cast off strictly a custom gun thing? Next is there a good resource for learning how to determine how much castoff to build into a gun for each individual?

 

[54ball]

No modern rifles have no cast off. with that said the large cheek of a Monte Carlo stock may accomplish the same thing.

It seems some of the Chambers kits and especially stocks copied from original rifles may a little "cast off".
The Track rifle I have now does not and does not have enough room for any cast off with the buttplate I chose.

That's no big deal for me since I shoot them off the right....patch box side.

As far as fit and cast off....I'm going to be accused of heresy for this.

You can take all kinds of measurements of the neck...eye...all that but if you are an average sized human that can shoot modern rifle....
off set the center of the buttplate 1/4" to the right.

That's 1/4" cast off.
Buttplate centered....that's zero cast off.
A left handed gun with the plate off set to the left....That's 1/4 Cast On.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

For what it is worth: In my experience of shooting, cast off is not worth the trouble. Only one of my rifles has cast off and I can't tell the difference. I will admit, it is a Roman nose style and I tend to get back on the stock more to avoid the comb from smacking my cheek bone.
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

[MSW]

built a rifle from a blank with enough width to get me a good bit of cast off (about a half inch, which is an eyebrow raising amount)

I really like the way this gun fits me.

you can be measured for all manner of variables for the 'perfect fit' but now you're looking at a custom made scattergun in (at minimum) the upper four figure range.

but all is not lost: if you want to tinker with this stuff, check out Alexander's The Gunsmith of Grenville County ”¦ he tells you how to make an adjustable try stock out of plywood which will allow adjustment for drop at comb, drop at heel, and other stuff that you can add if you are willing to tinker a bit. I built a try stock as he described out of 3/4 inch plywood and his method, although not as fancy as the try stocks in the custom shotgun shops, worked fine for me.

bottom line- I wouldn't hesitate to put some cast off on your stock.

good luck with your project, and

Make Good Smoke!

 

[billraby]

You will not get cast off on a kit with a pre-carved stock. You need to build from a plank to get it. I use a 1/4 inch for cast off. It is not a lot, but it really does make a big difference in how the gun feels. Don't use cast off in a gun with heavy recoil. Notice how the muzzle of a rifle comes up under heavy recoil. It is because the bore is above your shoulder. With cast off the muzzle will also kick to the left. Reason is that the bore is no longer in line with the center of a stock. Not an issue with most guns. But with heavy powder charges on .62 and up caliber, you may notice it. With crescent butt plate where you shoot from your arm instead of your shoulder, a bit off cast off will make a huge difference. On those I will also use 1/4 inch of toe out.

 

[Davemuzz]

When I began my TOTW Leman with a pre-carve (not the pre-inletted) stock, I read up on cast off and measured my stock to see if that could be done. Maybe by a guy who is well versed in building, but not me.

I will say this....shooting a rifle (open sights) requires lining up the sights. No matter if it's straight stock, pistol grip stock, cast off\on, etc. The sights have to be lined up.

OTOH, on a shotgun, which is a "point 'n click" type of firearm, cast off\on becomes a little more critical. I can say that when I had my Beretta stock fitted with a Grayco adjustable butt plate and comb, it made all the difference in the world.

 

[M. De Land]

I would add to the others excellent advice that cast on/off can be steamed into a straight stock as well as cut. It's done quite often on shot gun stocks.

 

[Darkhorse]

You can get cast-off or cast-on (LH) in a few kits. The Isaac Haines by Track of the Wolf has cast carved into the stock when you receive it. I know this for a fact as I've built a couple.
Dunlap also has cast carved into some of his kits. Not sure which ones but I'm pretty sure his Isaac Haines kit does.
But in general most kits do not have cast carved into the stocks.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Most modern rifles and muzzleloading kit guns have no cast off. Some kits may have enough extra wood to add cast off but if the trigger guard and butt plate are already inlet, that becomes hard to do. However, the bottom line is that on a rifle, cast off is much less important than on a smooth bored fowling gun. You can adjust the cheek piece height to accomplish some of what cast off does but having a rear sight gets you lined up properly even if the stock does not fit you perfectly. On a fowling gun, which has no rear sight and is designed for quick shooting at birds, your rear sight is your cheek position on the stock. For that position to be acquired consistently and quickly during the shot it often is important to tailor the stock to fit you. That is where cast off can be very important when needed and fowlers usually do not have cheek pieces so cast off is one important feature for fitting along with drop at heel, drop at comb, and toe angle.

dave

 

[stubshaft]

I believe that Jim Kiblers Colonial has a small amount of cast off in the stock.

 

[M. De Land]

I agree and of the four I think toe angle one of the more important.

 

[jerrywh]

If you ever shoulder a real custom made gun you will get a real surprise. There are four important features in a good custom gun. Cast off, Drop, pull and pitch. There is actually one more but it usually doesn't apply to long rifles.
There is a huge difference in the way they shoot regardless of what you may hear to the contrary.
A gun made to fit you will ruin you for any other. Off the shelf guns never really fit anybody. They just don't know any better. Cast off can be bent in a stock even if the wood is not thick enough to cut it in. Same goes for drop.

I made a custom gun from a Thompson Center Renegade. It had 3/2" drop, 1/2" cast off and 0 pitch. fit me like a glove. 13 1/2" pull
That gun won a long gong contest at 276yds off hand at the next shoot in Seneca Oregon.

 

[Vaino]

Actually the token amount of cast off on my BC LRs seems to be the right amount....3/16". All the builds are from a blank.

My 2nd build was a Lehigh anf had 5/16" castoff and between it and the lousy shape of the butt stock was a very painful "cheek slapper".

The BC LRs mount well w/ excellent sight alignment. Excuse the non BC features.....this was a very early attempt at a BC LR.....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

I am familiar with all the terms you mentioned, except that of "pitch". Could you help illuminate us with that description please?

 

[Free Range]

You guys are awesome, great information, I think I understand the concept now. Thanks again

 

[M. De Land]

Pitch is the angle of the butt (hook or shot gun style)to the barrel.It is more important with the shotgun butt style for mounting quickly and recoil management. You will find the stock drop also greatly effects recoil management.
Some times toe angle is also referred to as Toe Pitch.
Comb angle is another important measurement not yet mentioned. Good comb angles are parallel to the barrel or better yet drop away to the rear. If the angle is reversed to make up for to much drop then your check bone gets pounded and recoil becomes troublesome.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I think I understand pitch now. Basically the same thing as toe-in or toe-out, the intent of which is to get the barrel and sights level and perpendicular with one another in the vertical plane when you are in shooting position. Since shotguns are shot very often with your elbows out (so you can swing easily, a toe-out configuration works pretty well. Rifles are often shot with your shoulder elbow down, so often a toe-in is needed to gain alignment.

If you do your build with a 3/16" cast off, and a 5 degree toe in, the toe winds up being pretty straight back fron the barrel but a bit twisted. That is or can be slowly "unwound" as you make your way forward to the rear foot of the TG.

Yes on comb angle. Since recoil wants to drive the gun straight back, it will. Since your shoulder is below the bore, it forms an angle, and the gun wants to rise due to the angle. Since there is already a built in angle to the comb, just coming straight back is going to raise the stock relative to your cheek, Add in the anchor point of your shoulder, and there is muzzle flip induced. Both forces combine to whack your cheek bone. The greater the angle, the more the whacking.

That's why the M-16 was designed as it is. The bore axis is directly in line with the shoulder, so it wants to come straight back. (Dangerous game heavy rifles are also made with a minimum comb angle too.) The human form of our eyes being placed higher than our cheek bones is accomodated by the high raised sights on the gun, and recoil is better tamed. That is particularly useful when trying to control the weapon in full auto mode.

 

[George]

I think I understand pitch now. Basically the same thing as toe-in or toe-out,....

I don't believe that is correct. Pitch has to do with the angle of the buttplate with the line of the barrel. This might be of some help:
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/fit.html

Down the page a bit.

Spence

 

[M. De Land]

Spence, he was just saying toe pitch on the other axis is quite similar to butt pitch on the vertical although toe pitch actually has the radial component that butt pitch does not.
Cast actually is a better comparison to pitch on the cross axis.
Toe pitch regulates how one looks down the barrel at the vertical sight alignment.

 

[Pete G]

Not to be a contrarian, but almost all O/U shotguns have cast and all of the dozen or so of the preshaped stocks that I have ever gotten from Pecatonica have had cast. My Chambers Fowler also has a very noticeable cast.