Stock staining methods and finished results

[rootnuke]

Still waters run deep, and though I have not been active in the forum I have been in the shop with tiny chips and metal flying about and making progress. With that said here is a question related to stock stain and finish...

I searched around in the forum for stock and staining proceedures but got everthing from too many threads with unrelated content to "sorry, nothing found"

If there is a thread already created which answers my question then I'm all ears!, please point me there...

If not...

For those that do not know my kit is a 1770 Early Lancaster M3 Curly Maple stock.

This stock has some pretty sweet curls in it and I know what I want in a stock stain/finish, But how does one describe a stock stain or finish in order to get some pointers and resources to achieve those results.

Sure I can look in a ML catalog for stock stains but I don't know what the result will be from the stain.

The best I can come up with is to look around on the internet and snag some photo examples.

Take a look at the examples that I'd like for the finished product to look like and kindly give me an idea of the process, proceedure, supplier to achieve that look.

Thanks
rootnuke

 

[rootnuke]

"For those that do not know my kit is a 1770 Early Lancaster M3 Curly Maple stock."

:: OOPS! I made a BooBoo!

Stock quality correction, my stock is not M3 it is M5.
eace:

 

[vradin]

[quote} Stock quality correction, my stock is not M3 it is M5.
[/quote]

:imo: I'd be tempted to go with a light finish, nothing that might hide or muddy the beauty of the wood, but I'm not sure if that would be PC. You can mix beeswax with mineral spirits 50/50 and after a few dozen coats have a honey-gold tone to the wood or fume it until it turns black.

Is there a specific shade or color you're looking for, or a particular gloss level you want?

Then again, you can always make it theft-proof by using a few coats of high-gloss avocado green enamel . :crackup:

vic

 

[bob1961]

thats why i wanted my stock to be light in color with the stain i used....

so that the grain will show up nice and get the curl out in the open....mine was a grade 4................bob

 

[Slowpoke]

The top rifle looks to have been stain with Aqua-Fortis and the bottom one with a alcohol basis stain. If this is your first attempt, I wouldn't use "Fortis" without a lot of practice and the reassurance in my heart that this is what I wanted to do.

:imo:
It will cost you about $50-$60 dollars to stain your rifle. You need alcohol basis stains in Honey Maple, Red Maple, Dark Maple, some Danish oil, some steel wool, and some scraps of wood.

Get a piece of wood and put some Honey maple stain on and let dry. Get a glass jar and put the entire bottle of Dark maple in, then add a 2 tablespoons of the red. Mix and put some over the top of the honey maple stain and let dry. The stock will almost look black. Then put on some Danish oil on the steel wool a rub. The harder you rub the more of the stain will come off the piece of wood so do it lightly at first. Wipe off the excess and determine if its the color you want... Want more red, add another tablespoon and repeat on another piece of wood till you get the color you want.
Once you stain the stock and go over it with oil and steel wool, then cover the entire stock again with just the oil and let dry for a day. Then go over it again with the oil and let it dry again. Then with a cloth, rub the oil into the stock until you get a nice protective cover of oil.
This is just what I do :results:

SP

 

Rootnuke, here are a couple examples of stains that I've used in the past.

The above rifle is curly maple stained with fiebings alchohol based leather dye. It is a combination of dark brown, light brown and mahogany if memory serves.

This rifle is curly maple stained with aqua fortis (nitric acid). It's my experience that stains react differently with each individual piece of wood. Therefore, I always try the stain I intend to use on a peice of scrap from the same wood as the stock is made from. The slabs cut off the side of the forestock work well for this. I don't recall what kind of finish I used on the top rifle but the bottom one is bees wax. Hope this helps.

Cody

 

[Zonie]

The following picture shows what can be done with Birchwood Casey water base stains and Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil

The two on the right probably come close to the color you want.
They were first lye treated and then stained with 4 coats of Walnut and 3 coats of Colonial Brown. Unfortunatly, Birchwood Casey no longer makes the Colonial Brown (which adds the redish color to the wood).
I have also used BC Maple stain. The rifle which is 3rd from the left is multiple coats (I forget how many) of Maple and one coat of Walnut (to add a little more brown to the color).
As you can see, the BC stains do not hide the grain of the wood.

Because each piece of Maple "takes" stains differently, I use the "sneek up on it approach".
By this, I mean after the 3rd coat of stain, I always take the stock outside into the sunlight and wet it. This will show what the finished color and darkness will be when the oil type finish is applied.

I only used water based stains in the past, but my current project is going to get stained with Behlen "MASTER" alcohol stains. (You never know what you might learn by trying different things.)

I absolutly refuse to use any oil based stains.
This is because I have found that it is very hard to get oil based stains to become darker. There is a limit to the amount of oil the wood can absorb and once that limit is reached, your stuck there, like it or not.

As for the finish, these guns have between 12 and 16 coats of Tru-Oil on them.
If your not familure with Tru-Oil, it is linseed oil with driers added so it penetrates the wood, but hardens in about 6-8 hours instead of 6-10 days.
After the third coat is hardened, I wet sand it with 600 grit wet/dry carbide paper, just enough to remove the little unevennesses that dust etc causes. This is not enough to actually go thru the coating.
Each coat after this also gets a light wet sanding.

The finish on these guns is semi-high gloss or high gloss depending on which one your looking at.

To get this finish, after the final light sanding, I use Wrights Silver Polish and a LOT of rubbing.
If you want a satin finish, I would suggest using #0000 steel wool very lightly after the final coat of oil has dried.

I have tried Laurel Mountain Forge "Permalyn" finishes and so far I'm not impressed.

I have also tried "MAGIC MAPLE STAIN". Quite frankly, I was rather really upset about what it did to my stock. I had to resand and start the staining process all over. Of course that is just my opnion.

Hope this helps you some.
:redthumb:

 

[cptleo1]

I was worried about you
I thought the rifle won the battle.

Check Larry's work out !

http://www.artandarms.net/lady_rifle.htm#Top

He uses a combination of Brown, Walnut and Cherry alchol based stains to come up with these colors.

The finish is danish oil.

As others have said each piece of wood is different so you will have to experement.

I, like you have little pieces of stained wood all over the shop.

The other posters are 100% right, in that--

It seems the best results are with to much stain (almost black) and then rub it out with alchol to get it just right.

Good Luck

p.s.

Please forgive the spelling

 

[Slowpoke]

Larry, did the stain on my new 40 caliber... I plan on posting picture once it's finished. I showed me how to do it and that's where I got the info that I posted above.

SP

 

[LSU TIGER]

Hey root! The only stain that will make the curl really "pop" is aqua fortis. I have a ton of it if you want to try some, let me know. It's easy to use. Just wipe it on (don't look at the color) and let it dry. Now, CAREFULLY heat the stock with a heat gun, like you would use for stripping paint. KEEP IT MOVING! The stock will turn green , then the nicest shade of russet brown you've seen. After blushing, neautralise the acid, using either baking soda and water in solution or lye solution. The lye will yield an orange cast. Here's a trick. After staining, get some shellac and apply it as a sealer. Use enough to soak in so it it will start to seal, but not build a finish. Apply your finish of choice. The curl will have a "cat's eye" effect. :m2c: :results:

 

[rootnuke]

I have been reading everyones post and have been whit'lin and car'vin the past couple of weekends. I will be reading up in the Gunsmith of Greeneville County tonight and comparing his suggestions to the groups to get an idea of what I want to do for a stain an final finish for the stock.

Here is a little bit of forestock carving and what the overall gun is looking like. This forestock carving is about 80% completed. Lots of detail work is left to do on the overall gun.

The last 2 photos are a fitting process to determine what's next, what fits good and what does not. The carvings are at the first stage and setting real high in the saddle with lots of work yet to do. Use your imagination.

:thumbsup:

 

[rootnuke]

It seems the 2 dominating methods are Acid Fortis and Alcohol based stains.

LSU Tiger likes Acid Fortis and makes a point about the effect of Tigers Eye or Cat's Eye Agate effect.

However there is much talk regarding the Acid Fortis and the ability for a first timer to use it with positive results. In other words it aint easy. But I must say I have been moderately successful with (most) first attemps.

I really like the idea of Cat's Eye, and alcohol seems easier.

Can I acheive the color I desire and the Cat's Eye effect with an alcohol based stain?

:hmm:

 

[Zonie]

"
Can I acheive the color I desire and the Cat's Eye effect with an alcohol based stain?
"
_____________________________________________________________
As for the color, only you can be the judge of that.
I will say, the alcohol (or water) based stains won't stain any darker than they are in the bottle. That is to say, if it is a medium brown color in the bottle, it won't produce a dark brown even with multiple coats.

As for the Cat's Eye effect, I assume you are refering to the iridescent, ever changing look Curly Maple (and others) have when the angle of the light hitting to wood moves.
In my opinion, this is as more a function of the actual finish oil than it is of the stain.
The only way a stain or acid can change this is if it is contaminated and actually covers the wood fibers with an opaque material.
Of course if the oil is not absolutly transparent it would also deminish this look.

Although it is not for everyone, you should at least be aware of the lye water wood treatment. It inhances the contrast between the light and dark stripes. Here's a copy of an old post I made:


lye Water and Wood
#6642 - 01/16/04 08:19 PM


First off I'll say MuzzleLoader magazine published my story about this about 2 years ago but as it's my story I will go thru it here in new words so I'm not infringing on something.

For those of you who don't know what lye is I'll give you a quick lesson. The old timers got it by leaching wood ashes with water. It is a white crystalline material and can be found at some hardware stores in the plumbing section. It is used to open plugged drains. Don't use anything except pure lye for this proceedure.
It EATS skin, hair,grease and eyeballs! By eats I mean it DESOLVES them. It is a very strong caustic (or base). For that reason, if you try this you MUST wear eye protection, long sleeves and rubber gloves. It's also a good idea to have some vinegar (acid) handy to neutralize it if it gets on you. Interestingly it does not attack brass, German Silver or steel so your inlays can be installed in the stock and won't be affected by it.

I don't know that the old gunmaker masters used this method but it's been used for hundreds of years by woodrights so the masters must have known about it.

All wood has Tannin in it. It is what makes wood look brown. lye water has the ability extract tannin out of the wood cells and to "float" the tannin to the surface of the wood.

What this means to you is this: If you have wood with "figure" to it like curly Maple or Ash you can use this method to increase the contrast between the dark and the light figure of the wood.
The dark areas get darker and the light areas are mainly uneffected. No, this won't make what isn't there appear but it does increase the contrast.

This technique should be done after all of the sanding, burnishing and whiskering have been done and the stock is ready for the first coat of stain but no stain has been applied yet.

With all of your PROTECTION ON mix about 1 teaspoon of lye in a cup of cool water.

Using a narrow NYLON brush (any hair bristled brush will instantly be destroyed) paint the solution on the bare wood, totally covering all of the stock (and inlays if any) with a generous coating. Even if it runs, it won't hurt anything (unless it's alive that is).
At first it just looks like wet wood but as it drys it will start getting darker. No it doesn't change a lot but the dark places will get visibly darker while the light areas just turn a light tan.

While the wood is drying wash out the brush and kill the germs down the drain with the left over solution.

When the stock is DRY, paint it Once only with a coat of vinegar to nutralize the lye. Don't go over it again or you will dilute the contrast you worked so hard to get.

When it is again dry, it is ready for staining or whatever you have planned for it.
By the way, it also removes ALL of the oils your hands left on the wood so stains usually are more evenly absorbed by the wood during that process.

Because there is a limited amount of tannin in the wood, doing this process multiple times doesn't have any effect beyond redistributing the tannin thereby destroying your new work. What you get the first time is it but I think it is worth the trouble.

A word about Walnut: The process will also enhance walnut but if the wood is very dark it may make it so dark that the figure looses some of its contrast . If this happens then you will have to resand the darkness off and dewhisker again.

 

[Hoyt]

Zonie..while on the subject..I'm trying to decide what to use for my gun..I had decided to use True Oil..and maybe a litte Tru Oil Satin finish...but it don't look like it's dark enough on the maple I've tried it on. It just don't sink in like in walnut..as this picture represents. A stock I did on another gun..just Tru Oil and no stain.

this maple is so dense it doest penatrate..any suggestions appreciated.

 

[rootnuke]

Zonie,

Whenever you write Let dry... after the lye and then again after the vinegar application. Please define dry.

Bone Dry - next weekend
Dry - 24 hours
No moist sheen from application dry- a half day
Put a fan on it in the sun dry - a few hours

Not to be a smart-eleck, but it is lye, and I want to make sure I do not leave the lye or the vinegar applied too long before staining.

:master:

 

[Zonie]

Hoyt: Because most finishes are clear or slightly yellow, they won't add much if any darkness to the wood. IMO, they do add what I would call "wetting" to the wood. This makes the wood as if it were wet and will cause a stained piece of wood to look dark.
That's why I say when your staining, take the stock outside in the sun and apply some water with a rag or a spray bottle to see what the stock will look like when the finish is applied. It's kinda like a preview.
If the color suits you then go ahead and start the oil process. If it is still too light, add more coats of stain and keep checking.

I've found that the first coat of True-Oil penetrates rather well, but coats which are applied after the first coat hardens only build up on the surface. That is because the first coat not only soaks in, but when it is dry, it seals the wood.
If you really want more oil penetration in your wood, I would suggest that you first apply some boiled linseed oil and let it soak in. If you apply additional coats within a day or so, they will also soak in.
When you feel enough linseed is in the wood, then start the True Oil applications.
Note, the linseed never drys enough to be really waterproof. That's why guns with only linseed oil finishes will water spot if they get wet.
True-Oil, when dry, is waterproof so it will protect your wood from rain.

Rootnuke: As we members live all over the country, I can't give a length of time to let it dry which will work for people living elsewhere. I can say I let the lyewater dry until the wood looks dry (a few hours to overnight?) before applying the vinigar.
Because I use waterbased stains, I want the wood to be as dry as it is going to get before staining, so I let the vinigar dry at least overnight. Longer wouldn't hurt.

By the way, lye will not attack brass or German Silver. What this means is if you have brass or German Silver inlays or wire inlays in your stock, you can apply the lye (and vinigar)directly over them without concern. If it soaks under the inlays it won't come back to haunt you years later.

 

[Hutt]

On my birds eye maple wood that I use for single action army grips I confine ammonia (fumes) and my grip panels in a plastic bag for a length of time to achive just the right amount of aged patina I like.

 

[LSU TIGER]

Here's an example of Aqua Fortis and Tru-Oil.

 

[kentucky bucky]

Hey LSU Tiger,
I couldn't get the link to come up. Yes, we did stop them, now we need to start on the next cycle! Never rest! :RO:

 

[LSU TIGER]

Copy and paste the link. Left click on the link and move your mouse over it from right to left to highlight it. Right click the highlighted link and you should see a small menu. Click "copy." Go up to the address block on your browser and right click again. You should see another menu. Click "paste". Then click "go." It'll work that way.