Stray thought

[shootrj2003]

Was buying some flints this morning and a thought occurred to me,I alway's assumed that cut agate was a recent answer to supplying flints the reasoning was they were made by machines so they could be made faster.
Is this true? I have no idea so can anyone answer this,is this a modern thing(meaning in the last 75 years)or have they been around A long time?If so,how long? When were they first used,after all we've been cutting stone for millenia so they could be as old as flintlocks.Does anyone know this?

 

[George]

They have been around for a while.

"The South-Carolina GAZETTE
January 7, 1765
From the LONDON CHRONICLE.
”¦. About four in the morning his lordship waked, and got softly up, without (as he thought) being observed by his bedfellow; and dressing himself, buckled on his sword, and fixed two agate flints in his pistols, then charged them; but recollecting that his grace's second would probably desire to see them loaded, drew them again."

"The South-Carolina GAZETTE
June 22, 1765
WILLIAM GLEN, & Son,
CHARLES-TOWN
”¦ gold basket and death head buttons, black and French gun flints, agate ditto, spectacles,... "

Spence

 

[ebiggs1]

I believe the factories use them because they are easy to install. Being perfectly flat as the hand knapped ones are unpredictable. I don't think a single one of the custom builders recommend them, however. :hmm:
They have been, they are, and will remain awful. :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

They have been, they are, and will remain awful.

:stir:
Here we go again.
Like anything, there are good 'uns and bad 'uns. I like them.
BTW sawn flints have been around a long time. Mostly used on fine guns for the aristocracy. Some are/were even polished for jewel-like effect and beauty in presentation grade guns.

 

[shootrj2003]

Thanks guys,
See that ,I learned something today ,wether I wanted to or not!I have heard enough good about them that they must work for someone ,I have not made a good case study on them ,using them little,I am uninformed as to wether they are good or not,It might be a good reason to burn some powder,not that I need a reason!A good reason to BUY some powder and new knapper flints though ,A trip to Honesdale or Waullenpaupack.

 

[ebiggs1]

Sorry Mr Rifleman1776 but the Christmas season is over and I must go back to telling the truth. :grin:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I can live with any and all of the opinions here, but I feel we give newer members the idea that all sawn stones are agate. There is a lot of sawn products that are not agate. The sawn stones that major manufacturers include are neither agate nor flint. IMHO most of our arguing about this topic is based on this misunderstanding. I think from here on I'll use the word "stone" or "rock" - it's more fitting for what manufacturers offer.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Rifleman1776]

I can live with any and all of the opinions here, but I feel we give newer members the idea that all sawn stones are agate. There is a lot of sawn products that are not agate. The sawn stones that major manufacturers include are neither agate nor flint. IMHO most of our arguing about this topic is based on this misunderstanding. I think from here on I'll use the word "stone" or "rock" - it's more fitting for what manufacturers offer.

Regards,
Pletch

Absolutely correct. But some fixed notions are hard to change.
I have discussed this also. In Arkansas their is a producer of gunflints made from Novoculite. Some like it, some don't.
The flints sold by Gunter Stifter of Germany of of several different types of stone. Agate is but one. Jasper is another.
Some here have mentioned quartz. But I have never seen a successful gunflint made from quartz. It seems to have a different structure than flint and, in my experience, does not knap like flint. Arkansas mines a lot of quartz, I have experimented with it for gun flints with no success.
I understand TC provides a sawn flint that is often referred to as 'agate'. I have never even seen one of these but also have never heard anything good about them. Have no idea what the material is.
I'll repeat my experience: I have had great results with Gunter Stifter sawn flints, both agate and jasper, in one of my locks.

 

[mmahlock]

In answer to your question, the last time I bought German sawed gun flints the seller claimed to be cutting them on a machine that was over 200 years old. I can't put my hand on any documentation at this point or locate a link to his page with that information on it. I may have gotten them from Gunter Stifter but I'm not sure, it was a long time ago. I can say that I stopped using them because of two reasons. 1) They were eating two grooves in my frizzen one for bevel up and one for bevel down. 2) Every now and then when I installed a new one the first strike resulted in the entire sharp edge to break away leaving a flint with a square end. Fortunately both ends were sharpened so I could just turn it around reset it and keep shooting. On the other hand most of the time I used them they lasted so long I couldn't remember when I first installed the flint. However, as I said the damage they were doing to my frizzen was just too much.

 

[Robert Egler]

I have experimented with lots of different rocks as 'flints', and I have used quartz as a gun flint. You can't really knap it, you just hit it with a hammer until you find a piece that is the right size and shape, which can take quite awhile. I have almost never gotten more than 1 shot out of one, but they will spark once if the right shape. They also usually break on that first shot. Certainly an emergency measure if you have absolutely nothing else. I do use quartz in my flint and steel sets sometimes. Again, it doesn't last too long but it will work with the right piece, usually more than once with flint and steel.

 

[Zonie]

Only one shot with a piece of quartz?

And here, with all of you guys bad mouthing percussion caps by pointing out that you can run out of them and saying things like, "With a flintlock you just pick up a handy rock off the ground when your flint wears out." almost had me believing it. :hmm: :grin:

 

[ebiggs1]

Again you are perfectly right. :bow: I must make sure folks understand, I don't say they don't work. I just maintain they don't work as well as real flint like Black English. :thumbsup:
All the ones I have tried, from several sources, whatever they are, have worked. Albeit at a poor level.

Now let's see. :hmm: They cost more. You can't knap them and they don't spark as well. Not something I want or will recommend to anyone.
But you must admit, it is great fun to poke Mr. Rifleman1776. :grin: Seriously, I have no doubt whatever ones he's using is fine and does exactly what he wants. :wink:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I have no problem with your statements. I have knapped English or Rich's flints in my guns right now. Actually I save my sawn German agate for experiments.

Here is where the sawn stuff was a big help. Suppose I want to do a run of times that is 50-80 trials long. The likelyhood is that I will need to change flints. If I use any knapped flints with varying thicknesses, I probably can't replace a flint exactly like it was to begin. But if I used sawn German agate (with uniform thickness) I can replace during the testing without worrying about adding a variable.

I seldom do that many trials in a set, but used to when testing an unknown lock. I used to run 20 trials bevel up and 20 trials bevel down to see if there was a difference, before getting serious about it. In bevel up/down trials a sawn agate allows you to know how much higher on the frizzen you will change the strike.

As a side note, my interface used to allow me to tell if the flint was accelerating or slowing as it went down the frizzen. Lately I haven't been able to do that.

Regards,
Pletch