Ken, if you draw a hard line at a maximum of 25 yards then you definitely don't #5's...go to #6s...they'll fill in your pattern density and they certainly kill on the spot at 40yds anyway...at a mere 25yds you're just unnecessarily handicapping yourself with #5sadkmountainken said:
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struggling to find a turkey load!
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paulvallandigham
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At the short ranges he is shooting( under 25 yards) even a load that is only going 800 fps will kill a bird stone cold dead using #5 shot. Again, the penetration testing that Roundball recommends, using
tuna cans, or any can made of steel, set out at the range you want to shoot, to test how well the shot pellets penetrate with the load you use. You want a load that will send the pellet the size you choose to use through both sides of the can. Again, at short ranges, penetration is rarely a problem until you get up to #9 or #12 shot.
tuna cans, or any can made of steel, set out at the range you want to shoot, to test how well the shot pellets penetrate with the load you use. You want a load that will send the pellet the size you choose to use through both sides of the can. Again, at short ranges, penetration is rarely a problem until you get up to #9 or #12 shot.
I am using a shot snake these days, and I am not sure exactly what the middle setting on it is. Today we were using 70 grains of RS under a thick wad, full lubed cushion wad, thin over powder wad, medium load of number 6 shot, and a thin over shot wad to cap it off. The load is pleasant to shoot and absolutely devastating on anything a shotgun is correct tool for at the range you are describing.
paulvallandigham
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HOW ABOUT THAT! :hatsoff: I am glad to hear that my suggestion seems to have paid off. At 20-25 yards it ought to be devastating on any turkey. And without all that kick, you won't have any trouble lining up the shot, and sending it dead center on that head and neck.
Please give credit to the lat V.M.Starr. I read his stuff years ago in Muzzle Blasts, and noted at the time how different ballistics must be in ML shotguns than in modern guns with their chokes. I thought he made sense long before I every bought a ML shotgun myself. I was thrilled to find his article on the Bob Spenser site, which I found from his forum.
I use round ball loads with similar powder charges and wads to check the velocity expected with a shot load, as everything I have read tell me that is about as close as you can get. If I shoot shot over the chronograph, even with it being close, the wads cause a fairly unacceptable variation in readings from shot to shot. So, its the round ball equivalents, or referrence to factory tables for similar loads. I do use the pellet energy tables in the Lyman Shotshell reloading manual, to give me an idea of retained energy at 20, 40, and 60 yds for each pellet with the columns providing both velocity and pellet size. I have killed pheasants stone dead out to 30 yds with my open cylinder 12 ga. using 2 3/4 drams of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. A pheasant is much easier to kill than a turkey is, But I chose the load because it had been the favorite load of the Commercial Duck Hunters back in the 1880s on the Illinois River, and I am impressed with how the #5 shot's retained energy even at 35 yds smacks the bird down out of the sky with any kind of hit. They also seem to pattern well in my gun, producing round patterns, albeit very open.
Thank you for the info. I hope this will also help others. BTW, years ago, my best friend worked on developing a turkey load with his 20 gauge fowler, and he tried every size shot from #2 to #7 1/2. He also settle on Number ^ shot, for the same reasons you have found. Out to 25 yards, there are so many pellets on the target you almost can't miss killing a turkey with that load inside 25 yards. He got his bird, too.
Best of hunting to you.
Please give credit to the lat V.M.Starr. I read his stuff years ago in Muzzle Blasts, and noted at the time how different ballistics must be in ML shotguns than in modern guns with their chokes. I thought he made sense long before I every bought a ML shotgun myself. I was thrilled to find his article on the Bob Spenser site, which I found from his forum.
I use round ball loads with similar powder charges and wads to check the velocity expected with a shot load, as everything I have read tell me that is about as close as you can get. If I shoot shot over the chronograph, even with it being close, the wads cause a fairly unacceptable variation in readings from shot to shot. So, its the round ball equivalents, or referrence to factory tables for similar loads. I do use the pellet energy tables in the Lyman Shotshell reloading manual, to give me an idea of retained energy at 20, 40, and 60 yds for each pellet with the columns providing both velocity and pellet size. I have killed pheasants stone dead out to 30 yds with my open cylinder 12 ga. using 2 3/4 drams of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. A pheasant is much easier to kill than a turkey is, But I chose the load because it had been the favorite load of the Commercial Duck Hunters back in the 1880s on the Illinois River, and I am impressed with how the #5 shot's retained energy even at 35 yds smacks the bird down out of the sky with any kind of hit. They also seem to pattern well in my gun, producing round patterns, albeit very open.
Thank you for the info. I hope this will also help others. BTW, years ago, my best friend worked on developing a turkey load with his 20 gauge fowler, and he tried every size shot from #2 to #7 1/2. He also settle on Number ^ shot, for the same reasons you have found. Out to 25 yards, there are so many pellets on the target you almost can't miss killing a turkey with that load inside 25 yards. He got his bird, too.
Best of hunting to you.
Paul, I was experimenting and introducing someone else to muzzleloading shotguns. Using the cushion wad, I was getting a very nice point of aim pattern. It was a small pattern tho. I am losing the edges worse than I do without the cushion wad. Hunting you would never know it because the bird would look like it was struck by lightning. On the pattern board you see all of that. For turkey hunting I use 90-120 with no cushion at all. You can't really practice with that load. The gun is a little under 5 pounds. The recoil with the heavier loads is brutal.
The person that first published the "square" load info that so many have been deceived by should have his but kicked. I have had three muzzleloading shotguns now and none of them would shoot a "square" load worth a hoot. The classic book 100-100 load is useless in the 12 I have now.
On the good side, my buddy shot the Trapper and he was pleased with it. He thinks muzzleloading is cool, but he isn't ready to get involved yet.
We went to the cabin just to get away for a day or so. The wind was blowing big time, so even if we had been hunting, we would still have ended up mostly sitting and relaxing!
In my case, I use a 6mm over powder wad that is a little bit of a pain to get thru the choke, but works very well with or without a cushion wad. The cushion seems to help with the smaller sized shot, but it hurts with the bigger shot sizes.
You have a nice day!
The person that first published the "square" load info that so many have been deceived by should have his but kicked. I have had three muzzleloading shotguns now and none of them would shoot a "square" load worth a hoot. The classic book 100-100 load is useless in the 12 I have now.
On the good side, my buddy shot the Trapper and he was pleased with it. He thinks muzzleloading is cool, but he isn't ready to get involved yet.
We went to the cabin just to get away for a day or so. The wind was blowing big time, so even if we had been hunting, we would still have ended up mostly sitting and relaxing!
In my case, I use a 6mm over powder wad that is a little bit of a pain to get thru the choke, but works very well with or without a cushion wad. The cushion seems to help with the smaller sized shot, but it hurts with the bigger shot sizes.
You have a nice day!
paulvallandigham
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If you see the edges narrowing in a pattern, add a few more grains of powder- 5 grain increments, until it evens back out. Or try a different wad over the powder. I found I could deal with other variables of I found a wad that would effectively seal the gases All the time. Then I stick with that, even if I change the powder charge, or amount of shot, or other wads used. Because of the results posted here, I am getting ready to do some new testing with using only OS cards, in the guns, to see If I can't improve patterns. Setting up a patterning board and then shooting patterns all day long, keeping track of the changes in loads is a royal pain. But, like reading patches out of a ML rifle, its necessary for us to do if we want a good load for our shotguns. A forum like this helps narrow down the amount of work you have to do with your own gun, by sharing information as Iron Jim Rackham has done in using those os cards only.
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My 12 Gauge blows the patterns BAD with 3-F.
Went to 1-F and HOLY COW! Now thats a turkey load.
15-30 #5's in the head and neck at 30 yards.
Headhunter
Went to 1-F and HOLY COW! Now thats a turkey load.
15-30 #5's in the head and neck at 30 yards.
Headhunter
My gun is also easier to pattern with 2f compared to 3f.
I have not tried the multiple thin wads over the powder like Starr and others suggest. The thick nitro card works very well for me. I have the barrel regulated to hit point of aim at 25 yards now. I am good out to 40 yards, altho I am about a foot low that far out there.
Now, if anyone figures steel out in a muzzleloading shotgun, I want to read about it. My range with #5 steel is still pretty pitiful. Too many of the public areas around here require steel for that to be acceptable. I am looking for a good 30 yard multi purpose steel load.
I have not tried the multiple thin wads over the powder like Starr and others suggest. The thick nitro card works very well for me. I have the barrel regulated to hit point of aim at 25 yards now. I am good out to 40 yards, altho I am about a foot low that far out there.
Now, if anyone figures steel out in a muzzleloading shotgun, I want to read about it. My range with #5 steel is still pretty pitiful. Too many of the public areas around here require steel for that to be acceptable. I am looking for a good 30 yard multi purpose steel load.
adkmountainken
40 Cal.
i will be of to the range this saterday again taking everyones advice ( i know, should have before!! ) i will start my first load at 70 grains ff, thick over powder card, cushion wad, 1 1/4 #5's and thin over shot card. if someone thinks of a better load to start with please advise, Paul whatcha got?
70 grs of 2f 4 thin overshot cards, 1 1/8-1 1/4 oz of #5 or #6 shot and an overshot card on top.
adkmountainken
40 Cal.
thank you Rebel will do!!! by the way could you email me a few pic's of your turkey and the gear you used? please send to [email protected]
E-mail on the way.
paulvallandigham
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YOu can reduce that shot charge to 1 1/8 and get a little more velocity.
I do have an idea for being able to determine muzzle velocity with shot over a chronograph, without endangering the equipment.
Make of a paper shot cup, but make it long enough, and thick enough, that you CAN wrap the sides over the top of it, so you make, basically, a " frangible slug " out of your shot charge.
That slug will now pass over the screens and give you an accurate reading on muzzle velocity.
Now, whether any particular shot load and powder charge combination works well is determined DOWN RANGE at the PATTERNING BOARD, AND in the TIN CAN penetration test Roundball has described here.
Paul
I do have an idea for being able to determine muzzle velocity with shot over a chronograph, without endangering the equipment.
Make of a paper shot cup, but make it long enough, and thick enough, that you CAN wrap the sides over the top of it, so you make, basically, a " frangible slug " out of your shot charge.
That slug will now pass over the screens and give you an accurate reading on muzzle velocity.
Now, whether any particular shot load and powder charge combination works well is determined DOWN RANGE at the PATTERNING BOARD, AND in the TIN CAN penetration test Roundball has described here.
Paul
