Survival Question for Maxiball (or anyone else)

[Ohio Rusty]

In another forum you (Maxiball) wrote:

"Now survival is a game I understand realy, realy, well.
If we got into a pure survival situation a muzzle loader would only make a fair club and maybe some kindling wood."

I'd be interested in how you came up with this analogy?
There is a big difference between a survival situation and a fire-fight scenario. In a fire-fight, which you should avoid at all costs anyway, high capacity semi-auto's with rapid fire would be helpful. Why do you feel a muzzleloader is a useless survival tool? For the last 25 years, that is all I've shot is BP guns, and I've killed everything that runs, walks, hops, climbs, flys, slithers and swims with a muzzleloader, and never needed a second shot. I've also used my flinter to easily start a fire when I had no matches, lighter or burning lens, and I've done it day and night. When I take my .40 caliber or my smoothbore into the woods, everytime I squeeze the trigger, something dies. Rarely does my family go hungry when I take a fine sight down the barrel. I would be interested in hearing from you and others about why a muzzleloader would be ineffective for survival. You have my curiosity piqued !!
Ohio Rusty

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, there are better choices, but . . . It can't be argued that not long ago muzzleloaders were extremely well suited to the gamut of survival situations. The longhunters, Native Americans and mountain men proved that. The exception - as you noted - is in the event of a firefight. It can also be argued that one-on-one, even that would make no difference. It sure wouldn't be my first choice for clearing a house in urban conflict, but in the woods it wouldn't be as hopeless.

For me, if a muzzleloader was what I had available I'd be darned glad to have it.

 

[gasbomb]

Well I put it this way. My '58 rem army .44 will put a ball in the head of the guy with the better gun. Then that gun will be mine! :thumbsup:

 

O.K., you asked the question, so here's the answer.
This is 2004, not 1804. If you are talking SURVIVAL, then you are in a delicate situation to say the least.
I think you are talking about hunting with your smoke poles, not SURVIVING. If you were in a situation TODAY, in this modern world where you were FORCED to kill game to eat, then you are in deep doo-doo.
Actually the firearm is NOT the tool you think it is.
We live in a highly populated society, if you are FORCED to take animals to eat and live so is everyone else, because you are likely in a situation where the social machinery and infrastructure has broken down.
The only person that will help and protect you is YOU.
Now if you want to crawl around in the woods in a survival scenereo with a muzzle loader under those conditions, go for it.
You won't last long.
We have much better tools at our disposal than muzzle loaders.
In a serious situation where you find yourself killing food to survive do you really want all that noise and smoke drawing attention to yourself? With only ONE shot? Well, go ahead then.
Listen, I'm talking SURVIVAL in a modern world, not historical trekking and playing silly games, but a serious situation where your life is at stake.
I don't know where you live, nor do I care. I doubt you are an entity unto yourself living in an area with no other people in virgin territory abounding in fresh water and game galore.
Now if I'm forced to survive it that kind of world it won't be with a muzzle loader. I won't stake my family or myself on a gun in the first place.
I just love to read about the macho outdoorsman with the i.q. of a chipmonk bragging about having assault rifles, pistols, shotguns, thousands or rounds of ammo and how they can shoot thier way out of anything.
That, my friend is utter ********. Some nasty critter's gonna cut Mr. Macho's throat and take all his toys.
I don't need a gun to survive. I'll take YOURS.
Now if you're living in 1804, where the playing feild is leveled then you have a fighting chance with your muzzle loader.....but not today.
Keep one thing perfectly clear about this little diatribe.
I said SURVIVAL in today's world.
Now; not 200 years ago.
Another little ditty for ya. Don't stake your life on a tool. A gun is only a tool.
Your weapon better be between your ears.
Now I'm done with this discussion. I will NOT address it anymore as this isn't the place for it.
Wanna talk historical survival then there are places for that kind of thing.
Not one bit of it applies to today.

 

[BrownBear]

Food is actually a pretty low priority in survival situations, at least as they are experienced here in contemporary Alaska. Protection from tooth and claw is pretty low on the list, too, when you examine the hundreds of actual survival accounts up here. There's a very good reason protesters go on hunger strikes rather than "thirst" strikes: You can live weeks without food, but only days without water.

Faced with my choice of gear in a contemporary wilderness setting, as much as I love them I'll forego any model of gun and take its weight in other, more useful gear.

I load my survival pack for Alaska outings accordingly.

 

Brownbear. Well now, a realist among us hey?
Excellent.
You will always be well armed. Your primary weapon is between your ears. Compliments to your good sense sir. :RO: :thumbsup:

 

[robinghewitt]

if you want to crawl around in the woods in a survival scenereo with a muzzle loader under those conditions, go for it.
You won't last long.

But at least I'd die with a smile on my face ::

 

Robin, might as well be happy. ::

 

[shmrck1]

Maxiball,
i could not agree more!!!!! you are dead on with what you are saying!!!!!!!! :agree: :RO: :thumbsup:
snake-eyes

 

Whoa! I guess I have been out to lunch all these years! I have almost entirely thought of survival in a different context--man against the wilderness and the elements--not man against man (I view that as combat). My survival kits over the years have never included a firearm of any type--with the lone exception of the 12 gauge I carried in the Brown Bear infested wilds of Alaska when I worked up there a couple of summers doing field geology. I have managed to survive in deep woods wildernesses in North and South America, in the harshest deserts of the southwest (I lived in Death Valley for 7 mos.) and in high mountains relying largely on simple items like a good knife, fire starters, and compass (and little else).....you don't need a gun to get meat--you can trap it. A gun helps if you have one. Our ancestors survived much more difficult hardships than we with their muzzleloaders and I would rather have one than no firearm. Now, combat is another deal all-together. I served in the US Army (4 years active duty 1968-1971) and was trained in the Infantry School at Ft. Benning, Ga., so I have some idea about that....I still don't think of survival in those terms. :imo:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Unfortunately, you seldom get to pick what you want in any "survival" situation. On a sailboat or airplane you can have a ditch bag - which is nice if you have the opportunity to grab it. But survival situations usually surprise you. Like, what have you got in your pockets right now? I carry a sturdy folding knife - which I wouldn't be allowed to keep in any airport and could get me extra grief if I was arrerested with it. I have a small AAA Micro-Maglite on my keychain; also a P-38 can opener, screwdriver, fish hook etc. etc. I studied some martial arts, did some wilderness training and have put myself in semi-controlled situations in woods and on the water where I was forced to get by. I survived a storm on our sailboat where help wasn't nearby, land was 8 hours away, three faces were looking to me to know what to do, and there was a real question in my mind as to whether we were going to make it. Even then I could have ended it by giving up and calling the Coast Guard. I can't think of a think a gun of any type that would have helped - even the flare gun. No one was within 40 miles - I checked via VHF. Being terrified is one thing. Being terrified for 8 hours, while not having the luxury of being able to show it, was a real life-affirming experience.

As Maxi said. The weapon that counts is between your ears.

 

[Ohio Rusty]

You asked where I live, and that is in rural Southeast Ohio, same state as you. I see you are referencing Urban/innercity survival. Uhhh ... I hate to tell you, but there will NOT, NOR EVER be a great "breakdown in the social machinery and infrastructure" as you put it where you are having riots in the streets with everyone battling it out with AK's, and people slipping thru the darkness with a knife to slit your throat and take what you have. Time and time again thru any and all disasters like Hurricaine Andrew, Hugo, The big power outage in Canada and N.E. US last year, and recently Hurricaine Charley, people come together to help each other thru any and all crisis problems. The thought of shooting someone for their food, toilet paper and property, or even prepare to do that is blatantly ignorant and of a wrong paranoia mindset. Maxiball, you live in Ohio also... and we just happen to be one of the leading states in sending aid and money to the victims of Hurricaine Charley. All cities in a disaster will be more like opening their hearts and helping during a disaster than the dark paranoid image portrayed in fantasy. Infact, I truly believe that dark paranoid survival image brought on by the never coming great breakdown is a greater fantasy than surviving with a muzzleloader. I've noticed that there are many groups that encourage this kind of paranoid schizo pushing of their 'emergency preparedness'. In fact, One place that sent me a flyer has on sale this week the book: 'Prepare your family for nuecular holocost". Truly stupid ...
I bet most of you even prepared for Y2K ... which didn't happen either. Your resources are better spent to help, not hurt.
Ohio Rusty

 

[Claude Mathis]

Whoa! I guess I have been out to lunch all these years! I have almost entirely thought of survival in a different context--man against the wilderness and the elements--not man against man (I view that as combat).

I used to teach "Wilderness Survival", which is what you have in mind - build a shelter, gathers berries, etc.

I think Maxi's talking about the collapse of society and "all out" survival; riots, looting, people coming to take what you have. If that's the scenario, it's automatic weapons for me. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

I worked a little over 20 years professionally to improve survival rates of accident victims here in Alaska. During those years we evaluated every single "survival situation" we could find in the records, as well as every new one that came along. In addition, we had the forces in place to interview almost all of the survivors and evaluate the events in greater detail than appeared in the reports. Real crises, real survivors.

As Stumpkiller points out, the common thread in most of those incidents was the lack of gear. Folks usually got out of the wrecks/crashes/sinkings with the clothes on their back and what they had in their pockets. Our rule of thumb is that if you don't have it with you, it's not a survival kit.

We built our extensive training programs around surviving with nothing in your pockets, because in reality a whole bunch of folks survived just that way, sometimes for weeks- usually without food, and almost never with fire.

It turns out that like Maxi said: The most important survival kit is the one between your ears. We developed our training programs to build that kit for folks- a set of priorities that helped make decisions and guide your work. I could (and have) lectured and trained on it for days, but here's the short form: These are The Seven Steps to Survival:

Recognition
Inventory
Shelter
Signals
Water
Food
Play

No fire on the list, and look where food stands relative to other issues.

 

[RussB]

Brown Bear....I "think" I can account, in my mind, how each step is to be used. However, I'm at a loss with "Play".
How is it used ?
Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

Two guys in a lifeboat. "OK, whose turn is it to play the girl?"

Or, you kick the mouse around and throw it in the air a few times before you eat it.

Or, it's like here (work). I play on this forum to keep a proper mental attitude and not wander the halls spraying lead and pouring gas. Attitude is important to survival - everyone's.

 

[BrownBear]

"Play" is any ACTIVITY that improves your situation and helps your outlook- i.e., once all the chores are done don't sit around and feel sorry for yourself. Get off your hiney and stay busy. I guarantee that if your signals aren't seen on the first pass by rescuers, you are going to "play" with making your signals a lot better. We cover fire building as a form of play, but it's also useful as a night signal and for treating water. We keep it low on the list because in coastal Alaska you may have trouble starting a fire with anything short of calling in a napalm strike. Folks have literally or damn near frozen, meanwhile they were surrounded by great natural insulating materials which are much more effective in the first place for preserving body heat. Putting fire up front as a priority sets people up for failure, and they can expend all their energy, resources and enthusiasm trying unsuccessfully to start a fire while other, more important things, go undone.

Before I fall off the deep end and turn this into a book, let me close by summarizing that play is all about keeping a positive mental attitude to avoid depression and resultant drops in body temperature. Nothing will cheer you up like improving your lot in life, and to the extent that a fire is kind of cheery and making one from nothing is a fun challenge when you are warm, dry and bored, it is a good form of play. That usually galls survival "purists," but it comes from the experiences of hundreds of real survivors and not theory.

 

[RussB]

Yer both absoultely right. I knew that! I knew that all along...guess my mind was just to busy trying to build that fire??? :sorry:
Russ

 

I agree and whenever I have put myself into a situation where a "survival situation" could arise, I have been careful to have with me (in my pockets, or in a belt pouch or in a knapsack)the absolute basics. One of these is a good knife. I am never without a knife and that is why I do not fly commercial air anymore. I always have a "metal match" or some similar fire starter. I usually have at least a small compass. When I can I also generally have a small space blanket in blaze orange with reverse relector side. Other items when space allows include minimum first aid kit, fish hooks and line where appropriate (not too useful in Death Valley), small hatchet, etc....I believe I could make do with just a good knife. I was amazed in reading one book on "survival" that the author assumed you would not have one and instructed how to make one. Well, my advice is to have one!!!! :imo:

 

Awwwwwwww man, I said I wouldn't do this.
Rusty, you're talking about HUNTING, feeding your family and self.
I'm talking SURVIVAL in a worse case scenereo.
If you are talking wilderness survival, not a break down of the great machine I would rather have a good knife, hand axe, means of making fire, water avaiable, warm clohtes if necessary, means of making snares, deadfalls and such.
I know about wilderness survival, and I'm NOT an expert. If I had a firearm, and that's not a bad idea, it would have to be a .22, utterly reliable and accurate enough to pot a rabbit at say, 50 yards.
You can carry plenty of .22 ammo, it makes very little noise and will take deer and other large game with a brain shot. But what are you going to do with a deer in the wilderness if you don't have the means to preserve it?
Small game, if available is a better choice, and your snares are good for that. Snares work at night while your resting.
If we are talking a break down in the infrastructure I admit it's highly unlikely here, but look at so many other countries where that very thing happens right now.
That is one tough situation.
And of course I'd rather help others than add to misery. That's part of what makes us the great nation we are.
Listen, I spent 22 years in the mean streets helping people, going out of my way, way out of my way to help.
I also learned urban survival, where if you don't plan for the worse and hope for the best you could easily end up quite dead.
The city I policed was so violent it ranked in the top ten violent crime statistics in this State.
I went down "in the line" 13 times.
(slow learner :crackup
Of course my mentality leans towrads worse case. It had to.
I learned that pistol on my hip was a huge LIABILITY at times.
Ever have a 6'2" 230 pound crack head try to take your pistol from you. I betcha he ain't gonna target pratice with it 'less 'n it's on you!
I fought that sucker to keep my gun with a BROKEN BACK!
That one did me in. 9 months in rehab, so unnerstand I might be a bit cautious, but then I've SEEN everything that should NEVER happen, happen! And aweful things happend to wonderful, kind, loving, generous, people just like YOU.
My pistol was never fired at a human in anger, not once.
Here's a couple cases that happened to me. A guy whips out a Buck knife and tried to gut me. Do I go for my gun?
HELL NO! Go for the knife. If not, you will loose.
I guy draws a revolver and sticks it in my gut and pulls the trigger. Go for my gun? HELL NO!
TAKE HIS! If you grab the cylinder and get a vise grip on it the cylinder won't rotate ; ergo it won't fire, then you break his fingers and dance all over him...for a looooong time.
I'm NOT a big mean guy, I'm average build, but had to get smart REALLY quick.
I learned to THINK myself out of harms way.
I was the only white cop that could walk into a not white cheat spot, alone, after a guy we had murder warrants for and NOT be harmed in anyway by the locals.
I learned to survive in that environment.
Am I a bit nuts. HELL YES! You have to be to survive that [censored].
Now I will absolutely conceed that you could survive in the wilderness quite nicely with a muzzle loader in the world you are thinking of.
But not in MY world.
And if the fertilizer hits the ventilater, a Remington 870 ain't none to shabby neither. :crackup: :crackup: