Swagged or cast round ball.

[necchi]

Well ya load'm sprue up, cause you can see the sprue and know that's it's centered to the best of your ability.
Pointed down you can't see it and you could shift it.

I've had good acuracy from both swaged and cast, but only after I have carefully sorted them.
Someone else mentioned the "roundness" of swaged and it's easy to see if you just roll one across your kitchen counter like a marble. Some of'm will woble all over the place.

I'd like to see some slow motion myself. There is the theory that a ball will oburate under the pressure and velocity of the bore, and what we're shooting isn't really round when it leaves the barrel.
I guess for me casting not only allows me to save money, but control the quality, If the ball is out of round or off weight I can just re-melt it.
It's all about consistancy. I have some pretty tight standards/tolerances.
Is it nessasary ? No. But you don't get those blue ribbons and bring home the prizes by shooting like everyone else.

 

[Bill Hall]

Oops, I read that like ten times and I didn't see the word "bullet". Thanks, Bill

 

[CrackStock]

Capper,
The main work being done on high speed photography of ML items is by Larry Pletcher. From what I recall, the sprue was forward on his photo of a PRB in flight. I wrote to him and will share what I hear back.

 

[CrackStock]

Larry Pletch's photos.
Take a look at picture number 7 for the best demo of the sprue forward. There is one that at first might seem contrary, but read the text.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Link doesn't work.

 

[necchi]

Your link didn't work but copy/paste to google did.

Very interesting, Thanks for sharing, :thumbsup:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

See if this works.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/black-powder-photography.php

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Interesting experiment.

In the one shot that you can see the ball clearly. The sprue looks to have turned to the side, and it's early in it's flight. Did it continue to turn?

Interesting about the Swiss powder too. Does it get it's powder from a more complete burning than Goex?

 

[necchi]

The focus in the photos isn't that great. And I don't think they where shooting for accuracy.
I'm going to just take the experiment for what it is and not speculate.

 

[paulvallandigham]

NO. Slightly higher percentage of Potassium Nitrate, and smaller diameter granule sizing, allows it too burn faster, and Hotter, giving slightly more velocity. The Goex Express powder comes pretty close to the Equivalent Swiss powder in velocities, these days. Swiss if renown for using a more pure carbon in its powder making, than is traditionally used over here, by Goex. I can't speak about the carbon used in the Express powder because I could not find anything about it on the Goex website.

 

[Dphar]

Interesting experiment.

In the one shot that you can see the ball clearly. The sprue looks to have turned to the side, and it's early in it's flight. Did it continue to turn?

Interesting about the Swiss powder too. Does it get it's powder from a more complete burning than Goex?

Better charcoal.
They use charcoal that is not available in the US.
They also use slightly more potassium nitrate. But mostly its the charcoal.
Dan

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Interesting experiment.

In the one shot that you can see the ball clearly. The sprue looks to have turned to the side, and it's early in it's flight. Did it continue to turn?

Interesting about the Swiss powder too. Does it get it's powder from a more complete burning than Goex?

Better charcoal.
They use charcoal that is not available in the US.
They also use slightly more potassium nitrate. But mostly its the charcoal.
Dan

I probably worded that wrong. I did study up on Swiss before plunking down my money. I knew about the Alder charcoal and how they process it. Also about the ratio of potassium nitrate. What I wasn't clear on was how that gave it more power. The pictures clearly show how it burns faster and more complete than Goex. I would like to see some pictures of Goex Express to see how it burns.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I've measured and weighed several hundreds of swaged lead bullets and they all are within less than 1/2 thousandth of an inch of one another.
They also all weigh exactly the same to less than 1/10 of a grain.
The swaged roundballs I've measured and weighted on the other hand all seem to measure the same but the weights can be as much as 2 or more grains different.

I think Zonie was writing about the differences in swaged roundballs and swaged bullets.

I weighed both Speer and Hornady swaged r/balls and found as much as 5.0 grains spread in a box of 100. My cast r/balls are within 2.0 grains or less.

Does it make much difference at short distances? Dunno. But casting is more fun. :grin: GW

I have found the same thing. There is less variation in the weights of properly cast balls than in swaged. I don't think a little variation will hurt you when hunting or shooting a standard bullseye target at close ranges, but if you're shooting a target like a chunk gun target where you need to place each shot into the same hole, then that small variation could hurt you. For those matches I weigh all the balls and separate them by weight. I allow 1/10th of a grain variation between balls. I may have a pile here that weigh 188.5 to 188.6 grs. Over there is a pile that weighs 189.9 to 190 grs. If I have enough in a pile to shoot a match (usually about 15 shots), those are kept separate to be used in a match. I will use the other pile in a different match. I few grs. one way or the other probably won't make a big difference, but this is one way to reduce the variables in a type of shooting that already has too many. Others use swaged balls in this type of shooting but I can guarantee that they weigh and reject a bunch. It's cheaper for me to cast anyway since I have several hundred pounds of it and like I said, I'm getting less variation, less than 3 grs.
:thumbsup:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

If you had enough swaged balls. Could you come up with a few piles that would be good for competition?

 

[Tumblernotch]

I`ve wondered the same thing Capper. Also if it makes a difference if they`re loaded spru up or down? I don`t shoot alot of cast balls, but when I do I load them spru up. Because that is the way I`ve always heard is correct. Just something I`ve wondered about. :hmm:

I think you'll find that if you start you ball with a shortstarter with a concave tip, you will round that sprue off, especially if it's a fairly tight fit.

A good friend of mine who is a very good shot, hammers his ball below the muzzle with the haft of his knife and flattens the ball and it doesn't affect it. Those balls upset (obdurate) a bit anyway when fired and don't stay round to start with.

When I was learning to shoot these things, I was taught to load sprue up so I've stayed in the habit even when the sprue got rounded off. What I was told and have noticed when shooting is that the condition of the base of any bullet is the important thing to watch. Although in this case the bullet is round, the part facing the powder is the base. If the sprue is back there cocked in one direction or the other, that can cause the ball to wobble or veer one way or the other. I experimented with that some time ago and saw that it would happen. The advantage of the swaged ball is that you don't have to worry about the sprue.
:thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

If you had enough swaged balls. Could you come up with a few piles that would be good for competition?

I'm sure I could. I've got a box of .490's that I found a couple of weeks ago (had them put up for years. Used them in a rifle I traded over 25 years ago). I've been thinking of trying them in my chunk gun. I normally shoot .500's but I'm thinking of tweaking the load. I may not have enough to get a lot of the same weight but maybe enough for at least a couple of matches. Might be a project for tomorrow evening. :hmm:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I'm thinking of getting into some target competition. The weight, roundness of the balls is becoming more important now.

I just bought Dutch's system, and i'm hoping that get's me started in the right direction. I'm talking to him by mail too. I know he's going to push me to start casting.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hey Pete,

Something I do, which may or may not work for you, is after casting, I cut the sprue off with a side cutters.

Afterward, I throw them in a rock tumbler overnight with a bit of powdered graphite to keep too much lead from rubbing off and getting the balls undersized.

They come out within half a grain of each other. I attribute this to the air rising in the sprue, and being cut off with it. As well, I would hazard a guess that any additional voids are reduced or eliminated while tumbling.

They are very accurate regardless of the mechanism.

Josh

 

[Tumblernotch]

Just a few grains one way or the other will probably not hurt you in most competitions but it wouldn't hurt to weigh any you buy to make sure there's not any in the box that are way off. That can happen. Even when casting there can be the occasional oddball that has a huge void in it that you can't see. It's just a step I take to cut down on the many variables that are there when trying to hit where I aim consistently. If I can remove or at least reduce all that I can in my weapon I know that any failures are on my end. You know, the nut behind the butt. And believe me, there are plenty and they're the hardest to correct.

 

[Dphar]

If you had enough swaged balls. Could you come up with a few piles that would be good for competition?

Not if you want round ones. I just measured a .570 I had left over from testing a pistol I built, last one of the box. It was about .008 out.
The .445s I checked were .004-.005
The .490s were out .004-.006
The .535s were out .004-.006
I weighed 5 of the .535s and they were within a grain.
I grabbed 2 cast .495s from where they were dropped from the mould a few weeks ago and they were within .001-.0015.

All this is checking 5-6 points on the ball with a mic that will read in "tenths".
Trying to measure something like this with a caliper is a waste of time.

Note that the divots in the swaged balls from tumbling and shipping will make small flat spots that will measure undersize. But getting measurements that are on or .002 under and then getting .004 over 1/4 turn away?

Dan