Swamped barrel channel

[Paul R]

I want to build a Hawken based rifle with a swamped barrel. I will be making the stock, but am not sure on making the channel for the swamped barrel. Any suggestions? The sides don't worry me too much, but the arch for the bottom has me wondering.

Paul

 

[paulvallandigham]

You put ledger lines on the stock blank- say, at 1 inch intervals( closer if that works better for your particular swamped barrel)-- that give the Depth at the point in the barrel mortise that corresponds to the thickness of the barrel at that point. Drill holes to establish the bottom depth. Remove wood to those depths, and connect the dots.

I do not suggest that the process is easy. Its simply how curves in wood have been dealt with for thousands of years. Many stock makers were also furniture makers, and even boat builders. In Europe, many furniture makers also dabbled in making wooden instruments. All these wood products have curves with which the workers had to deal- some much more critical( as in furniture and violins) than anything in a barrel mortise. :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

We are much more "fussy" about matching mortises to barrels these days, than back in the 17 and 18th centuries. Most barrels only had their top 5 flats actually filed, and swamped, if the stock was a full stock. The bottom three flats were either left round( Ie., no flats), or were left as crudely ground with grinding wheels, with no actually filing on those flats at all.( late 18th and early 19th century) :hmm: One of the reason for the different treatment is that we now have machines to do the work accurately for us. But, If you are doing this by hand( ie. hand tools) you will be going back to the old ways of working wood. Ledger lines, and depth markers were how these arcs in wood were made efficiently, with hand tools. I think its the two angled flats next to the bottom flat that are the most difficult to cut accurately. But, if you get the side flats cut properly, those angled flats don't matter, and removing more wood from that area is not going to let the barrel move. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[jerrywh]

A half stock or a full stock?

 

[Paul R]

I am a furniture builder by profession, So I will probably use a router setup for the side cuts. I knew the bottom should follow the barrel but was hoping I didn't have to re-invent the wheel,so to speak, to do it. Your suggestions were what I was looking for. Not having to worry too much about the angle sides makes it easier. It may not be PC/HC but I guess I could always 'bed' them

I plan on doing fullstock with flint. 31" Rice barrel, .58 cal.

Paul

 

[rich pierce]

It's going to be your rifle but I wonder why you'd build a Hawken that way. It will not represent a believable Hawken rifle. I've not seen fullstock Hawkens with barrels that short. Tapered barrels were common (usually 1 and 1/8" to 1", over 36-38"), but not swamped barrels. If weight is your consideration, you might consider getting a "C" weight, 38" swamped barrel and cutting it back to 34" or so, eliminating the flare. That would give you a tapered barrel that would be quite light, though the taper would be more severe than on any original.

 

[Robby]

Moose, Square up the top and one side to it. Try square a line across the top and down both sides where the breech of the barrel will fall. Using a dado in your table saw, set the dado to the depth, half the barrel diameter is okay, and a width to where, when the barrel nests in the groove, the side flats of the barrel will not be more than 1/8" above the top of the stock, mark a line on your saw table square to the point that the dado blade descends into the table. Center up the stock to your dado on the rip fence, and run your stock up to the point where your dado line and the breech line on the stock match up. Chisel out the dado radius and square the breech, lightly grease up and lay the barrel in the groove, tight to the breech. rip some strip of 1/4" thick underlayment, 1-1/2 to 2-o" wide the length of the barrel. Make sure the barrel sides are perpendicular to the stock top, and lightly clamp it down. With brads nail down the underlayment on each side of the barrel touching at the breech and the muzzle. Make sure to nail outside any place that would be the finished stock, and another short piece of underlayment across the breech. mix up some "Bondo" and fill in the gap between the underlayment and the barrel. When it is set remove the barrel, sand the underlayment smooth. Using a 45 degree bit, carbide is best, with a same size idler bearing on the shank ,they usually come as a set, set it to a depth that the bearing will ride on the flat impressed by the barrel. Your a woodworker so you know about how much bite you should take. After I am well into the wood, I remove the underlayment. and clean op the top and proceed. You will still have to square the breech with chisels and the sides, if done right, will require some light scraping to get the barrel in, You can go as deep as you dare, the bottom has to be finished with chisels and scrapers anyway. Use some in-letting black and work it down. There are many other ways to do the job this is one of them. Hope this helps, good luck. I do think you will get more personal satisfaction doing it with just chisels and scrapers, but this works.
Robby

 

[Paul R]

I haven't yet figured out how to post direct links, so you'll have to do a little searching these threads.
In the General Muzzleloading forum:
Thread name "Hawken Barrel Length" started by CAPPER 01-06-11

Thread name "Swamped Barrels" scroll down to LaBonte 12-29-10 posted pictures of original Hawkins w/swamped barrels- full & half stock

Without prejudice, I rest my case

Paul

 

[bioprof]

Here's a gunmaker's secret that was revealed to me by a wise man. You don't need a ruler, tape measure or calipers to measure the depth to inlet a swamped barrel after you have inlet the side flats. All you need is a square piece of metal. Make sure it is absolutely square. Place the square into the barrel mortis with one of the corners straight down. When the corner of the square touches the bottom of the barrel mortis with the sides of the square touching the side flats, you are deep enough. This will place the barrel so that half the side flat will be exposed. It will work anywhere along the length of the barrel mortis, even for a swamped barrel. No need to measure.

If I could still remember my geometry proofs, I would explain it. A picture will have to suffice though.

Isn't the internet a wunnerful thin?

 

[Paul R]

I appreciate your instructions for one way of cutting a barrel channel. However, I really was looking for help for a swamped barrel.

Usually, when cutting a barrel channel, I use a router table instead of a table saw. I remove most of the wood with a 'hogging' bit. It's a 1/2" dia, solid carbide, spiral bit w/teeth on the cutting edges. It allows me to remove much more wood faster then I could with a normal router bit. After roughing out, I go back with regular router bits to clean up.

Looks like I'll be building a template to clamp to the blank and using the router 'hand held'. That will work for the sides, but the bottom will still have to be worked out.

Paul

 

[Paul R]

Hey, I like that. You really are more then just a pretty face.

Paul

 

[rich pierce]

I haven't yet figured out how to post direct links, so you'll have to do a little searching these threads.
In the General Muzzleloading forum:
Thread name "Hawken Barrel Length" started by CAPPER 01-06-11

Thread name "Swamped Barrels" scroll down to LaBonte 12-29-10 posted pictures of original Hawkins w/swamped barrels- full & half stock

Without prejudice, I rest my case

Paul

Well I'll be dipped and rolled.If it wasn't LaBonte saying it, the veracity might be suspect. But there it is.

Howsomever, I'll warrant they aren't swamped like a jaeger barrel is swamped, with the dramatic taper and flare; nor is either close to 31" short. Now you've got me wondering what LaBonte would think of a jaeger barrel on a fullstock Hawken. But it's your build- it's what you think that counts.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thanks for the tip. One can never have enough gauges when working on these projects. This one is sure-proof, regardless of the thickness of swamped nature of the barrel. As long as the side flats have been cut accurate, this "Square" will tell you wnen you have taken off enough wood in the barrel channel.

Now, If someone can come up with an "easy" way to lay out and cut those angled flats off the bottom on a swamped barrel, they will really have my interest. :idunno: :surrender: :bow: :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[rootsy]

Here's a gunmaker's secret that was revealed to me by a wise man. You don't need a ruler, tape measure or calipers to measure the depth to inlet a swamped barrel after you have inlet the side flats. All you need is a square piece of metal. Make sure it is absolutely square. Place the square into the barrel mortis with one of the corners straight down. When the corner of the square touches the bottom of the barrel mortis with the sides of the square touching the side flats, you are deep enough. This will place the barrel so that half the side flat will be exposed. It will work anywhere along the length of the barrel mortis, even for a swamped barrel. No need to measure.

If I could still remember my geometry proofs, I would explain it. A picture will have to suffice though.

Isn't the internet a wunnerful thin?

Tis very simple. Bisect the distance between the contact points on the top of the channel. Drop a line perpendicular from the midpoint to the vertex touching the bottom of the channel... What you have now created is a 45 - 45 - 90 triangle and each leg is equal in length. 1/2 of the barrel channel width is equal to the depth from top of channel to bottom.

 

[Robby]

Moose, Those instructions are for a swamped barrel, but I'm with Rich for this gun. Thanks Bioprof, thats pretty cool!!
Robby

 

[J.D.]

Well I'll be dipped and rolled.If it wasn't LaBonte saying it, the veracity might be suspect. But there it is.

Howsomever, I'll warrant they aren't swamped like a jaeger barrel is swamped, with the dramatic taper and flare; nor is either close to 31" short. Now you've got me wondering what LaBonte would think of a jaeger barrel on a fullstock Hawken. But it's your build- it's what you think that counts.

The swamped Hawken barrels I have seen were so lightly swamped that they looked either straight or tapered until you looked down the side of the barrel. Only then could the swamp be seen.

IMHO, either a half or full stock Hawken would look really funky with a modern swamped barrel.

I suggest contacting Ed Rayl to make a barrel with the correct swamp for that style of rifle.

God bless

 

[jsn]

Heres what I did to get an octagon almost perfectly formed, I made a scraper, just added a guide to it today to control the depth, theoreticly (never know until you try it) you can make a track to controll the depth and shape of chanel with guides, This is what I am using for the tapered octagonal section of the octagon-round barrel I will use on my fowler

 

[LaBonte]

Well I'll be dipped and rolled.If it wasn't LaBonte saying it, the veracity might be suspect. But there it is.

Howsomever, I'll warrant they aren't swamped like a jaeger barrel is swamped, with the dramatic taper and flare; nor is either close to 31" short. Now you've got me wondering what LaBonte would think of a jaeger barrel on a fullstock Hawken. But it's your build- it's what you think that counts.

No I would not recommend the modern jaeger barrel with it's big muzzle flare offered by most makers
For a shorter than 36" barrel I'd suggest a tapered barrel as likely being more appropriate. Overall about 10% of the extant originals have swamped barrels - on the other hand the majority of these are later (1840-50') era so the percentages of the actual production could be skewed in favor of the tapers which make up the majority.

The swamped Hawken barrels I have seen were so lightly swamped that they looked either straight or tapered until you looked down the side of the barrel. Only then could the swamp be seen.

IMHO, either a half or full stock Hawken would look really funky with a modern swamped barrel.

Depends -
The Atcheson rifle (the fancy silver mounted one dated 1836) has a 37" barrel that is 1 1/8" at the breech, 15/16" at the taper, and 1" at the muzzle. That's 3/16" difference between the breech and flare and 1/16" between flare and muzzle.
The closest modern equivalent (i.e. the classic American by Colerain) in the D weight is admittedly 5" longer at 42", but the other dimensions are close: 1 1/8" at the breech, 7/8" at the flare and 15/16" at the muzzle. So the breech to taper is 1/16" overall more (1/32" per side), but is the same, 1/16", from flare to muzzle.
A C weight in the same model is slightly smaller in all dimensions but the overall outline is the same.
Considering the minor differences in "diameters", (which IMO would be virtually indistiguishable by eye) the American Classic style in C or D weight would be appropriate for a Hawken, especially an earlier pre-1840 model. Unfortunately for those wanting a shorter properly swamped model a custom is the only way to currently go.

 

[Paul R]

My apologies. I had to reread your procedure a couple more times before it sank in. Much easier then making a template.

Paul

 

[Mina]

Tis very simple. Bisect the distance between the contact points on the top of the channel. Drop a line perpendicular from the midpoint to the vertex touching the bottom of the channel... What you have now created is a 45 - 45 - 90 triangle and each leg is equal in length. 1/2 of the barrel channel width is equal to the depth from top of channel to bottom.

The internal angles of an equilateral triangle are 60 degrees. He is talking about the two legs of a isosceles right triangle which are equal in length.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

THIS THREAD IS 12 YEARS OLD. SOME OF THE POSTERS ARE DEAD!