Swiss 3F in .50 cal rifles

[R.J.Bruce]

Fffg black powder is all I had to use, starting with a .45 caliber flintlock longrifle (5 years), then a .50 caliber flintlock longrifle (4 years), and finally a .62 caliber flintlock longrifle (1 year).

All three barrels had a 1:48" rate of twist. My optimum load for the .45 caliber & .50 caliber rifles was 70 grains of Goex fffg black powder. In the .62 caliber rifle the optimum load was 75 grains of fffg Goex black powder.

All three barrels, one Douglas (.45 cal.), and two Getz (.50 & .62 cal.) were capable, off of a bench rest, of 5-shot groups measuring the size of a silver dollar, at a measured 100 yards. Every once in a while, I could pull off a 5-shot offhand group at 100 yards that equaled the bench rest groups. Like once a year when the shooting gods were smiling down upon me.

In order to damage any of those barrels shooting fffg black powder, I would have needed a 200 grain plus powder charge, and the recoil would have been intolerable.

 

[Bassdog1]

The difference in brands in my opinion comes from the type of charcoal used, the sifting process and the final grain size. Comparing Swiss 3f to Standard Goex 3f I notice the Swiss grains are more uniform and smaller in size and also produce a bit harder fouling. That being said I have always been able to achieve very good groups using both. I own 2f but only use 3F in my guns including my 54 Renegade as I get the best results with it. I have owned one gun that shot Swiss 3F better than any other powder. It is a 36 Seneca that wants a tight patch and 25 grains of Swiss with a lightly lubed patch and it is a Tack Driver. My last powder buy was a case of Goex Olde Eynsford 3 F and as I run out of my other powders it will be all I shoot in everything from here on out as testing and shooting it have shown it to be an excellent option.

 

[Bad Karma]

With these high three FFG loads in 50 plus caliber rifles, what about overpressure? Does anybody ever mic the breach end of their barrels to check for swelling?

I doubt if anyone here is capable of detecting an overload in that manner. By the time a barrel swells enough to be detected by our hand tools it’s probably on its way to bursting milliseconds later. Unless you use smokeless powders it’s very difficult if not impossible to blow a properly constructed and loaded barrel.

 

[Bad Karma]

I meant "FFFg".

The instruments used to measure pressure either use old technology like lead “crusher” pellets in a fixture mounted on the barrel or newer tech like,strain sensors fixed to the tube. Either are very accurate.

“All three barrels, one Douglas (.45 cal.), and two Getz (.50 & .62 cal.) were capable, off of a bench rest, of 5-shot groups measuring the size of a silver dollar, at a measured 100 yards. Every once in a while, I could pull off a 5-shot offhand group at 100 yards that equaled the bench rest groups. Like once a year when the shooting gods were smiling down upon me.

In order to damage any of those barrels shooting fffg black powder, I would have needed a 200 grain plus powder charge, and the recoil would have been intolerable.” - @R.J.Bruce

I would bet the cost of the replacement barrel that you couldn’t damage the barrel, any of them, with 500 grains of 3f loaded normally. Muzzleloading rifle barrels are overbuilt by a great margin with efficiency and recoil being the true limitating factors. That’s my opinion and I’m with @Britsmoothy here. I’ve never seen evidence of a ruptured barrel due to an overload of Blackpowder. Every time evidence has been offered there’s another factor, smokeless powder, short starting or a structurally deficient barrel.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I can understand the competition bench rest shooters (ball & bullet), the BPCR cartridge rifle shooters, and the modern inline bullet shooters, all feeling that Swiss black powder is a necessity for their particular type of muzzleloading shooting.

For myself, unless the only way that I can obtain acceptable accuracy in a muzzleoading firearm is to utilize Swiss black powder; than I have no plans to purchase any. My choices, in ascending order, will be......

Graf's black powder
Goex black powder
Schuetzen black powder
Olde Eynsford black powder
Swiss black powder

Back when I was shooting for my own personal pleasure, fffg Goex black powder was all that I used. Both as the main powder charge in my three flintlocks, and as priming powder for the pan of the locks.

My imminent return to muzzleloading shooting/hunting after a near 30 year absence will be with a Javelina stocked, dual pistol grip, inline handgun. Instead of another flintlock longrifle, which is where my heart lies

This is for medical reasons, because my PCP has told me that any impact to my osteoarthritic shoulder joints is only going to risk damaging them further than the osteoarthritis has.

I have no intentions of spending what I consider "STUPID MONEY" in order to join the thousands of other hunters/shooters feeding their modern muzzleloading rifles with the extremely expensive BH209 propellant. At the shortened ranges that I will be pistol hunting, I can see no practical need for the higher energy that BH209 brings to the table.

At ranges out to 100 yards, my absolute maximum distance, Goex fffg black powder, or Graf's fffg black powder, will deliver more than sufficient killing power for any species of big game animal that I ever intend to hunt.

The same would hold true regardless of whether I am going to shoot a flintlock, a percussion sidelock, or any type of modern inline.

 

[deerstalkert]

making my own Bp has been a 60 year trip. i have tried processes from as early as 900ad and copied as close as i can glean information from most of the companies.
i have Hurclules powder from 1963 i use as a control base. other commercial powders span the time since then that i use for controls, grain size etc.
the basic formula for powerful, useful BP hasn't changed for several hundred years.
the key to a consistent power i find to be in the combining of the components.

i have settled on Willow, mainly because i have it growing profusely on my ranch.
properly charred it is perfect for my use.
when combining the components i find a minimum of 6 hours produces the best results.
one BIG mistake people make is in the calculations of portions.
they will take a pound, 453.59 grams, of kno3 and then add the percentages of coal and sulphur based on that one pound ratio. works but i have found it slows the rate of burn 10% to 20%.
Combining for 12 hours has produced a 20 % faster powder for me a few times if there were a low humidity level.
bone dry is best but BP will burn wet. fouling increases with damp.
will graphite tumble my powder just because it keeps the crumble factor down
graining i have found a blend of 90% isopropyl mixed 50-50 with water creates harder grains.

i have made presses and pressed powder under 2k pressure until dry and the results could be used by the NHL.
its too much pain for me to hammer, grind the pucks , though i feel the compressed powder id marginally more powerful.
these late years i have settled on one grain size, fffg. works for everything i shoot.
i would class my powder mid range as to fouling. crud ring i never encounter.( lucky dog)?

enough ramblings from the Hospital!
Survived Covid Pheumonia. stay well and make smoke for me!

 

[Roundball 54]

I've been using 3f in 54 and 58's since 1970 . No problems .

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I am going to postulate a theory that back when black powder was the only propellant available for war, hunting, or sport that not only was the quality of the powder problematic at times, but so also was the supply.

I find it impossible to believe that even armies were always supplied with exactly what they wanted.

The point that I am trying to make, in a roundabout way, is that shooters had to often use whatever was available, which might not always be exactly what they wanted.

So granulation size was probably not as critical as most modern day, obsessive/compulsive, muzzleoading shooters would like to make it out to be.

 

[deerstalkert]

Gunpowder: The History and Legacy of the Explosive that Modernized Warfare
by Charles rivers is a excellent tome. from invention to present. lots of good info on the early BP production in the Colonies and Early US. (many small producers gobbled up by DuPont)

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

I use 3f in all my guns, a Kibler .54 smooth bore, a .44 rifle and a .50 smooth bore pistol, they all work fine.

 

[Buckskinquin]

I just finished shooting the NMLRA Postal Match with my .50 Investarms Hawken. I used 60 grs of Olde Eynsford 3f at 25 and 50 yards, then 70 grs at 100 yards. I have some 2f but am only using 3f for now. I use a .018" ticking patch and musket caps. I need more range time to get better groups. The bear target at 100 yards is very challenging.

That Bear target, I’ve been told at different shoots was originally shot at 50 yds. At 100 yds, it’s hard to hold on and there’s so many white lines running through the bear, it’s hard to see the holes also.