T/C .50 Hawken and conicals?

[Howie1968]

I love the great plains 385 and the maxiball 370 both shoot great 80 gr OE 2F with wonder wad over powder

 

[rheath]

These are made for people who believe modern gun writers. There is no actual need and they are not traditional is ML hunting rifle. The "naked" bullet TC first came out with was not only dangerous since they, like all "naked" bullets can move off the powder in a ML, it was less effective as a hunting bullet than a RB of the same caliber. The only thing that is really gained is an increase in breech pressure and shorter nipple life.

I had heard the concern about unpatched bullets moving off the powder for some time and wondered if it was actually likely to happen, so I ran a home brewed test. I loaded up my .45 with a Maxi snugged against the powder. Then I put a folded up towel on a concrete pad and let the rifle drop muzzle first on the towel from a height of about a foot. I did that three times and figured that was an exaggeration of the rifle getting dropped on the ground on its muzzle a few times in the course of day in the woods. I then ran the ramrod onto the bullet and found I could not budge it. It had not moved.

 

[Carbon 6]

I had heard the concern about unpatched bullets moving off the powder for some time and wondered if it was actually likely to happen, so I ran a home brewed test. I loaded up my .45 with a Maxi snugged against the powder. Then I put a folded up towel on a concrete pad and let the rifle drop muzzle first on the towel from a height of about a foot. I did that three times and figured that was an exaggeration of the rifle getting dropped on the ground on its muzzle a few times in the course of day in the woods. I then ran the ramrod onto the bullet and found I could not budge it. It had not moved.

Dphar1950's comments were spot on. The T/C conical I posted at the beginning can shift and migrate off the powder charge.
Not an issue for the target shooter or the guy sitting in a hunting stand, but if you are walking, check your bullet every so often. I have found them to come off the powder charge on multiple occasions.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You are going to have to check for conical movement in your own rifle. The movement will depend on the bore diameter of the rifle, the diameter of engraving ring on the conical and the depth of the grooves. It can also depend on how hard the conical is seated at the breech. If you strip the engraving band on loading, the bullet will move.

Take care and verify what happens with your rifle.

 

[Crane Senior]

Check out the Forum Rules. We don't talk about sabots and bullets with plastic stuff in or on them.

Small issue in CA is that we cannot hunt game with lead RB any more. So, if I want to use my .50 Hawken I cannot go totally traditional. I'm headed on a hunt in a month and will take my Hawken but am looking for some advice on loads. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Small issue in CA is that we cannot hunt game with lead RB any more. So, if I want to use my .50 Hawken I cannot go totally traditional. I'm headed on a hunt in a month and will take my Hawken but am looking for some advice on loads. Any help is appreciated.

Try marbles. I know a guy who killed a deer with a marble in a muzzleloader.

 

[Crane Senior]

LOL, good idea, but I’m not sure I want to get that close to the pig. Any idea of the fragmentation of the marble?

 

[SDSmlf]

Read the old posts by Roundball and his testing of 58 caliber brass balls. Non-Lead projectiles for hunting

 

[Griz44Mag]

LOL, good idea, but I’m not sure I want to get that close to the pig. Any idea of the fragmentation of the marble?

No idea, he says there was a hole going in and a hole going out, never found the marble. So he assumes it was a clean pass through.

 

[Crane Senior]

No idea, he says there was a hole going in and a hole going out, never found the marble. So he assumes it was a clean pass through.

That’s pretty amazing. I think I’ll go with something a little more metallic.

 

[Crane Senior]

Read the old posts by Roundball and his testing of 58 caliber brass balls. Non-Lead projectiles for hunting

I looked at the string, great information on it and interesting. However, the only ammunition that can be used has to be approved by the Dept. Fish and Wildlife. No marbles or round balls that I could find. All the approved muzzle loader bullets are sabot rounds.

 

[Whitworth]

Try marbles. I know a guy who killed a deer with a marble in a muzzleloader.

A marble of good leaded glass can weigh as much as 50% of a lead ball and 75% of a brass ball.

 

[SDSmlf]

I looked at the string, great information on it and interesting. However, the only ammunition that can be used has to be approved by the Dept. Fish and Wildlife. No marbles or round balls that I could find. All the approved muzzle loader bullets are sabot rounds.

Guess you need to specifically ask the DFW about brass round balls. Why wouldn’t they approve a brass roundball? I know you are dealing with a government agency and the luggage that they bring, but why not ask? How would they know or find out about brass roundballs otherwise? If not known about very unlikely to be approved unless by some backdoor accidental process. And remember, brass roundballs weren’t mentioned until the 28th post on this thread on a traditional muzzleloading forum...... Not many traditional hunters campaigning for those that want to hunt ‘traditional’ with non traditional type regulations. Definitely not a lead projectile and meets the intent of the dogooders. Maybe you can talk them into a letter of approval for field testing, or something like that for your hunt next month. Just have to push the right button. Good luck.

 

[Crane Senior]

Guess you need to specifically ask the DFW about brass round balls. Why wouldn’t they approve a brass roundball? I know you are dealing with a government agency and the luggage that they bring, but why not ask? How would they know or find out about brass roundballs otherwise? If not known about very unlikely to be approved unless by some backdoor accidental process. And remember, brass roundballs weren’t mentioned until the 28th post on this thread on a traditional muzzleloading forum...... Not many traditional hunters campaigning for those that want to hunt ‘traditional’ with non traditional type regulations. Definitely not a lead projectile and meets the intent of the dogooders. Maybe you can talk them into a letter of approval for field testing, or something like that for your hunt next month. Just have to push the right button. Good luck.

Thanks, I’ll think about it, that’s an approach for sure. Many thanks fo all the input.

 

[Dphar1950]

I never mentioned a bullet, what are you referring to? A conical? You've missed something if you think conicals are hype and only the gullible shoot them.
As far as the Ampco nipple, perhaps you were over tightening it? Mine is holding up well and snugs up in the same spot every time.

I have not used a Ampco nipple in over 50 years. Conicals? I know more than you think. Does nobody wonder why the “naked” conical was not in popular use for HUNTING in the 19th c? Or the picket for that matter? Has anyone here read The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles”? Or W W Greener’s comments on conicals and hunting? Or Sir Samuel Baker’s trial of a conical in his “Devil Stopper” in Africa? Probably not. Does anyone ever wonder why TC invented the Maxi-Hunter? Its because a lot of people had problems with critters lost after being shot with the too pointed Maxi-Ball. friends in Canada abandoned it and reverted to the PRB for MOOSE. Does no one know how heavy game was dealt with in India and Africa before cartridge guns?? It was with hardened round balls. In “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” Forsythe tells us that with a hardened ball and 137 gr of powder in his 26” barreled 14 ga (69 cal) rifle he could drive the ball through an Indian Elephants head from side to side. Then in “Pondoro” Taylor tells us of using a 10 bore smooth bore to kill Elephant and Rhino with heart lung shots when the ammo for his modern rifles was shipped to the wrong place. Using a hardened ball and 167 gr of powder. Yet people think they need a conical to kill an animal that is less than 10% the body weight of the really large game (a grown bull African Elephant weighs about 10000 pounds) hunted with a ML in the past. Yet people with limited or no experience with the rb are told by manufacturers and gun writers (who only want to please advertisers) that since the RB is old fashioned, it does not look like a modern gg or jacketed bullet has all these so called faults and that “it lacks penetration” it won’t work for hunting. Its BS of course but people believe it since they don’t know any better. Do conicals work? Sure. I have a couple of friends who have killed many deer with 22 rf. My Grandfather over 100 years ago killed a wt buck with a chest shot with a 22 short. The pressures, the possibility of a bore obstruction, the higher trajectory unless a lot of powder and pressure is involved. Increased recoil are just 3 things. Since 50-54-58-67 caliber RBs in pure lead all give 30” of penetration. They always pass through except on raking shots or something like a 45 rb driven by 45 gr of powder at 50 yards the or unless a very dense bone is encountered. I see no need of a conical. If the shot is properly placed, the ball size suitable for the game there is no issue. Tough target? Harden the ball. I suspect a hardened ball will penetrate as well as a soft lead conical. But its going to losd hard in barrels with wide lands.

 

[Dphar1950]

Bismuth round balls if they can be found. I don’t think its possible to cast balls from the stuff.

 

[Carbon 6]

ITX round balls are California approved.

 

[SDSmlf]

ITX round balls are California approved.

Didn’t relizey (nor did I confirm myself) that ITX round balls were legal to hunt with in California. They are available at Ballistic Products, a good company to deal with in my experience. ITX .50 cal (.487) non-toxic roundball (12 balls)-ballisticproducts.com

 

[Carbon 6]

"legal to hunt with" probably depends on the type and size of game you are after (check the California regulations for that.) but, ITX round balls are on the California approved lead-free projectiles list.

 

[Crane Senior]

I looked at the CA approved list and TomBob ITX is on it. I love that the link you attached show “sold out”. Good grief is everything sold out these days. Many thanks for the info and tip on this. I’d rather shoot a PRB even though I’ve got a 1:48 twist. Although I do have a Frankengun with a 1:60 twist. I may try that for fun.

Again, many thanks for the info.