Well while I am not knew I am green at shooting BP. I have had a TC hawkins that was a gift from my wife 20 yrs ago. I have never been able to get it to shoot worth a hoot. Bought Pyrodex, .490 balls, TC patches with wonderlube. Went to the range sandbagged the rifle after loading with 90 gr. still can't get the thing to shoot at 50 yds so that I am confident enough to hunt whitetail deer. Shoot the 30/06 at 300 yds well enough to knock down 8 inch steel plate 100% of the time with a rest. Help!!!
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T/C Hawkins
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Try some different powder charges, different patch material, different lube. But only change one thing at a time, ie: change the powder charge and leave the other things the same. If the groups improve with a certain charge, then take that charge and chang one of the other things. Keep at it until you get the best groups. Also, before doing any of this make sure that the barrel of your rifle is completely clean and rust free. Scrub it out good with a brush and some brake parts cleaner, then some patches on your jag until they come out clean.
What do you mean by "can't get it to shoot"?
What are the results that you're getting"
Not knowing exactly what you're experiencing, one approach I'd use if I had your situation would be to ensure a perfect starting point by ENSURING the bore was back to a pure, clean, bare, raw, metal condition as follows:
Buy a jar of "Shooter's Choice Black Powder Cleaning Gel", a tube of TC Natural Lube 1000 bore butter, and a couple of top quality ML bronze bore brushes.
Invest a couple hours repeatedly cleaning the bore with the gel using the bronze bore brush and patches. Plaster the Gel all over inside the bore and let it sit for 5 minutes...then brush scrub it 50 strokes..then dry patch the gunk out...repeat this cycle 4-5 times letting the gel sit at least 5 minutes each time. (when done with the brush, rinse it off well or the gel will dissolve it)
Then sit the barrel breech-end-down into a 5 gallon bucket of steaming hot soapy water, and pump flush it with patches, then pump flush it in a separate pail of clean hot water to rinse it.
Immediately get the bore bone dry...as in bone dry!
Then I'd pack every square inch of the bore with natural lube 1000...use a putty knife or popcicle stick to spread it from a tube onto clean patches and keep plastering it up and down the bore so there's no chance any bore metal is left exposed...if you do this while the barrel is still warm, it's help melt and spread/run the bore butter.
Then go to the range, dry patch excess lube out, set up a target at 25yds, and in that TC barrel, use prelubed .018" TC pillow ticking patches with Hornady or Speer .490 round balls, and zero it for a ragged hole at 25 yds with 50grns Goex or PyrodexRS.
If you can't do that after all the above, it's not a barrel with buildup in it, or improper lube or improper supplies, or the wind, etc...it could be inconsistent loading procedures, or slow/sluggish lock time delays allowing muzzle drift, or shooting skills that need to be honed a little more, etc.
What are the results that you're getting"
Not knowing exactly what you're experiencing, one approach I'd use if I had your situation would be to ensure a perfect starting point by ENSURING the bore was back to a pure, clean, bare, raw, metal condition as follows:
Buy a jar of "Shooter's Choice Black Powder Cleaning Gel", a tube of TC Natural Lube 1000 bore butter, and a couple of top quality ML bronze bore brushes.
Invest a couple hours repeatedly cleaning the bore with the gel using the bronze bore brush and patches. Plaster the Gel all over inside the bore and let it sit for 5 minutes...then brush scrub it 50 strokes..then dry patch the gunk out...repeat this cycle 4-5 times letting the gel sit at least 5 minutes each time. (when done with the brush, rinse it off well or the gel will dissolve it)
Then sit the barrel breech-end-down into a 5 gallon bucket of steaming hot soapy water, and pump flush it with patches, then pump flush it in a separate pail of clean hot water to rinse it.
Immediately get the bore bone dry...as in bone dry!
Then I'd pack every square inch of the bore with natural lube 1000...use a putty knife or popcicle stick to spread it from a tube onto clean patches and keep plastering it up and down the bore so there's no chance any bore metal is left exposed...if you do this while the barrel is still warm, it's help melt and spread/run the bore butter.
Then go to the range, dry patch excess lube out, set up a target at 25yds, and in that TC barrel, use prelubed .018" TC pillow ticking patches with Hornady or Speer .490 round balls, and zero it for a ragged hole at 25 yds with 50grns Goex or PyrodexRS.
If you can't do that after all the above, it's not a barrel with buildup in it, or improper lube or improper supplies, or the wind, etc...it could be inconsistent loading procedures, or slow/sluggish lock time delays allowing muzzle drift, or shooting skills that need to be honed a little more, etc.
Roundball thanks for the information. Can"t get it to shoot equates to 8-10 inch groups at 25 yds. When I first received the gun new I varied the powder, projectiles and patches. Never could get the gun to group. It has less than 200 shots fired through the gun. Cleaned after shooting ever time with soap and hot water. Eventually, it was regulated to the gun vault where it has sat for 10-12 yrs. It has been kept oiled and cared for just not shot. Where I hunt we have a management
program that requires the killing of does. I would like to use the Hawkins for this if I can get the rifle to shoot a reasonably group. If I can do that I might just quit using the
30/06 altogether. I know people get them to group so just looking for advice to get this thing working correctly. I will
clean the gun as recommended and the first chance I get go back to the range and spend the day trying to get some reasonable groups. Again thanks for the information.
Texasdave
program that requires the killing of does. I would like to use the Hawkins for this if I can get the rifle to shoot a reasonably group. If I can do that I might just quit using the
30/06 altogether. I know people get them to group so just looking for advice to get this thing working correctly. I will
clean the gun as recommended and the first chance I get go back to the range and spend the day trying to get some reasonable groups. Again thanks for the information.
Texasdave
8" at 25 yards! No wonder it's been in a corner. :shocking: Something ain't right and that's certain.
Here's what you do:
Make sure the gun is .50 cal and not .54 (only half joking here).
Scrub the bore with a tight fitting patch soaked in alcohol, then a wire brush about 100 cycles, then a dry patch alternated with a oiled patch until they come out white.
Get either a fresh pack of pre-lubed 0.015" patches or some cotton patch material and a tube of lube (olive oil or Bore Butter, even Crisco).
90 Grains FFg is plenty hot, you might even want to drop back to 75 for target work to begin with. If you're not using real blackpowder you'll have to rely on someone else's advise. The poor rifle's probably broken hearted and can't shoot for its melancholy mood.
Clean the bore with an alcohol patch and run a lubed cleaning patch up & down a half dozen times before the first load. Measure each load carefully. Lube and ram each load consistantly. At 25 yards that rifle should cut sub 1" cloverleafs from a bench. If it begins to get hard to load, wipe the bore with a cleaning patch damp with saliva. Some rifle/loads require this every shot, some every five, some just keep a' goin all day without it.
If you've shot conicals or mounted a scope on her in the past she may benefit from an exorcism.
Here's what you do:
Make sure the gun is .50 cal and not .54 (only half joking here).
Scrub the bore with a tight fitting patch soaked in alcohol, then a wire brush about 100 cycles, then a dry patch alternated with a oiled patch until they come out white.
Get either a fresh pack of pre-lubed 0.015" patches or some cotton patch material and a tube of lube (olive oil or Bore Butter, even Crisco).
90 Grains FFg is plenty hot, you might even want to drop back to 75 for target work to begin with. If you're not using real blackpowder you'll have to rely on someone else's advise. The poor rifle's probably broken hearted and can't shoot for its melancholy mood.
Clean the bore with an alcohol patch and run a lubed cleaning patch up & down a half dozen times before the first load. Measure each load carefully. Lube and ram each load consistantly. At 25 yards that rifle should cut sub 1" cloverleafs from a bench. If it begins to get hard to load, wipe the bore with a cleaning patch damp with saliva. Some rifle/loads require this every shot, some every five, some just keep a' goin all day without it.
If you've shot conicals or mounted a scope on her in the past she may benefit from an exorcism.
It should literally shoot a single ragged hole At no more than 25yds...if you do all the above, particularly using the set trigger from sandbags, and it's still wild the barrel may be defective somehow.
If you reach that point and are certain there's no other possible influence, you could send it back to Service Manager Tim Pancurak at TC with a memo explaining everything you've done, and he'll make it right under lifetime warranty, probably just replace it, no charge.
If you reach that point and are certain there's no other possible influence, you could send it back to Service Manager Tim Pancurak at TC with a memo explaining everything you've done, and he'll make it right under lifetime warranty, probably just replace it, no charge.
Stumpkiller may be right on track about barrel size when he joking said .50 or .54 Cal. I have a Hawken with a marked .54 barrel that you can't get a 525 without a patch down the barrel. I have to use 515s guess that makes it a .52cal. Make sure you have the right patch ball comb. for the barrel reguardless of whats marked on it. Everything else about cleaning is true and needs to be done first. Your rifle should make 1 ragged hole at 25 yards or I would do as roundball said check with T/C.
Merry Christmas
Fox
Merry Christmas
Fox
As I haven't seen this mentioned, after you shoot 5 shots or so, find the fired patches. They can tell you a lot about what is happening.
If everything is going like it should, the fired patches will have tattered frayed edges but where the ball was sitting aginst the bore, it should not have any slits/ worn thru areas or burned thru areas. The center of the patch should look gray, dark brown or even slightly black depending on your powder, but not charred or burned.
If the patch has radiating slits going outward towards the edges, where the ball was seated in the bore, it indicates the rifleing is too sharp and needs to be steel wooled or lapped to break the edges.
If the patch is burned thru, it indicates a lack of lube or old patch material (or both).
This can also indicate the patch thickness coupled with the ball your shooting is not sealing properly. Increase the patch thickness or ball size a few thousandths of an inch.
Note: old patches become weak over a period of time. If the patches are old, go to Walmart and buy some blue and white, or red and white pillow ticking. Make sure you get the 100% pure cotton kind only. This is reeeeeeaaaaaalllll good stuff for patching.
If a area looks torn, it may have been ripped when you rammed the patch/ball into the muzzle. Check to see that the muzzle is a nice smooth transition from the face into the bore. No sharp edges permitted here IMO.
If your patches are not burned, torn, or cut and the gun is still shooting poorly, check to see if the sights are loose.
If they are tight, then do as suggested by the others and return the barrel to TC. Something is very wrong with it.
If everything is going like it should, the fired patches will have tattered frayed edges but where the ball was sitting aginst the bore, it should not have any slits/ worn thru areas or burned thru areas. The center of the patch should look gray, dark brown or even slightly black depending on your powder, but not charred or burned.
If the patch has radiating slits going outward towards the edges, where the ball was seated in the bore, it indicates the rifleing is too sharp and needs to be steel wooled or lapped to break the edges.
If the patch is burned thru, it indicates a lack of lube or old patch material (or both).
This can also indicate the patch thickness coupled with the ball your shooting is not sealing properly. Increase the patch thickness or ball size a few thousandths of an inch.
Note: old patches become weak over a period of time. If the patches are old, go to Walmart and buy some blue and white, or red and white pillow ticking. Make sure you get the 100% pure cotton kind only. This is reeeeeeaaaaaalllll good stuff for patching.
If a area looks torn, it may have been ripped when you rammed the patch/ball into the muzzle. Check to see that the muzzle is a nice smooth transition from the face into the bore. No sharp edges permitted here IMO.
If your patches are not burned, torn, or cut and the gun is still shooting poorly, check to see if the sights are loose.
If they are tight, then do as suggested by the others and return the barrel to TC. Something is very wrong with it.
I am very appreciative for all the information about the rifle. The first chance I get I will spend some time at the range and see if I can't resolve the issues. I real enjoy shooting the gun and am sure it's just a learning curve. ONe question when I shot the rifle this past weekend I was looking for patches and never found any. How far from the muzzle should I be searching?
Texasdave
Texasdave
Guest
It also helps to have sumbuddy "off to tha side" watch to see wher yore patchs are land'n!!
YMHS
rollingb
Dave, something else you could take a look at would be the sights. The front sight is normally pretty rigid, but could have a wiggle anyway. The back sight what I can remember is an adjustable sight on the TC and held in place with screws. If not absolutly tight, the sights will change its position from the recoil of the shot. If your shooting with a scope, check the bases and the rings. If your using one of TC's tang mounted tangent sight make sure the barrel pin is tight and your barrel is not moving during the recoil. If your sighting system is not exactly the same shot after shot you can get very erratic groups.
Just a thought
Good Luck
Joe
Just a thought
Good Luck
Joe
"If your sighting system is not exactly the same shot after shot you can get very erratic groups."
Boy! Ye see what happens whan ye wear yer gun buildin glasses an try ta read a PC screen?
Ah thout "hot dam! Ah's been thinnen tha only thin that is funner than shootin black powder would be iffen Ah could get a little sex inter it.
Than Ah saw this har post talkin 'bout some Erotic Group un Ah thinks, now that thar is what ye wants ta join Zonie!
Livin in Arizonie likes Ah do, Ah's seen em nudest camps aroun' whar em 89 yar old's are a runnin 'round wit nothin on but but what God an 40 yars o' fast food has put on um but that ain't ma style.
Now Ah could just imagin sum pritty thins a loadin ma front stuffer fer me.
Than Ah puts on ma PC glasses an war Ah disappointed!
"Erratic groups" somehow rates rite down thar with em 89 yar olds wit 40 yars of Big Macks hangin on um. :cry:
Boy! Ye see what happens whan ye wear yer gun buildin glasses an try ta read a PC screen?
Ah thout "hot dam! Ah's been thinnen tha only thin that is funner than shootin black powder would be iffen Ah could get a little sex inter it.
Than Ah saw this har post talkin 'bout some Erotic Group un Ah thinks, now that thar is what ye wants ta join Zonie!
Livin in Arizonie likes Ah do, Ah's seen em nudest camps aroun' whar em 89 yar old's are a runnin 'round wit nothin on but but what God an 40 yars o' fast food has put on um but that ain't ma style.
Now Ah could just imagin sum pritty thins a loadin ma front stuffer fer me.
Than Ah puts on ma PC glasses an war Ah disappointed!
"Erratic groups" somehow rates rite down thar with em 89 yar olds wit 40 yars of Big Macks hangin on um. :cry:
Guest
Heck!!.... Zonie,.... We both know thet at "our" age even "erotic load'n" like thet would cause "erratic groups"!! :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :cry:
YMHS
rollingb
My problem is I have good tight sights. But I cant see them and there is no way I will put tellyskopic sights on my outfits. When I go look at the target I have to find them in my bifocals. That is why I am more interested in smooth bores, buck and ball shooting. If I can hit tarantulas, rattlers and big bugs at 15 yards that all the grouping I need. Anyone else have better sights than their eyes can use?
Joe
Joe
Peep sights will do wonders for your sighting problems.
Several of them out there on the market.
You can also help your sight by poking a little hole (1/16 dia or less) thru some black electrical tape and taping it on your shooting glasses so your looking thru the hole when your aiming.
Cheap reading glasses from the drug store helped me a lot. Get the lowest power they have (1.0 or 1.25 diopter).
Not only do they help with vision, but they are made of polycarbonate which is excellent for eye protection while shooting.
Several of them out there on the market.
You can also help your sight by poking a little hole (1/16 dia or less) thru some black electrical tape and taping it on your shooting glasses so your looking thru the hole when your aiming.
Cheap reading glasses from the drug store helped me a lot. Get the lowest power they have (1.0 or 1.25 diopter).
Not only do they help with vision, but they are made of polycarbonate which is excellent for eye protection while shooting.
Finally, had a chance to go to the range. Spent several hours
cleaning and getting all the haints out of the rifle.
Set up the target at 25yds and had a purty little group about 3" above the bullseye. Went home feeling very good and cleaned and oiled the rifle. I had shot 70gr Rs Pyrodex with a .15 pre-lubed patch and .490 RB. Went back after Christmas to move to fifty yards. Same load first ball was about 4" inches low and to the left. From there things went down hill. It's became obvious that the gun is a neat freak. With a dirty barrel after 5 shots it started shooting 8" high with the rear sight all the way down. I started hunting for patches which shouldn't have been a problem since I was shooting over 4" of snow. All that was left of the patch were flaming remnants. How do I stop the patches from self destructing?
Thanks
Texasdave
cleaning and getting all the haints out of the rifle.
Set up the target at 25yds and had a purty little group about 3" above the bullseye. Went home feeling very good and cleaned and oiled the rifle. I had shot 70gr Rs Pyrodex with a .15 pre-lubed patch and .490 RB. Went back after Christmas to move to fifty yards. Same load first ball was about 4" inches low and to the left. From there things went down hill. It's became obvious that the gun is a neat freak. With a dirty barrel after 5 shots it started shooting 8" high with the rear sight all the way down. I started hunting for patches which shouldn't have been a problem since I was shooting over 4" of snow. All that was left of the patch were flaming remnants. How do I stop the patches from self destructing?
Thanks
Texasdave
Canuck Caster
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Sounds like yer lube is giving out on ya. Or, just not enough lube. What are you using for patch lube, Bore Butter, Moose Snot, Milk or Skweerial Juice? It could also be that your patch material is too thin and burning through. That ball/patch combo should be fairly tight to shoot accurately.
Canuck Caster
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And ditch the Pyrodex :imo: that there is a BLACK POWDER rifle, and as such, shoots best with BLACK POWDER. I too tried Pyrodex in my T/C Hawken and it was a complete waste of money and time-no cleaner to shoot, not as accurate, and doesn't even stink purty! Try Goex FFg, say 60 grains under a .018 well lubed, fresh, pillow ticking patch wrapped around a Hornady or Speer .490 ball. If you are having problems with accuracy-storebought balls are a bit better than home-cast balls. Not usually much better, but if you have a problem with your rifle, start with a known good "recipe". Shooting too hard a cast roundball can also cause the problem you describe, but usually not to the extent you describe. You should then cut cloverleaf groups at 50 yards. Are you wiping between shots? After each shot at the range, I swab the bore with a cleaning patch, wet with Windex, but wrung out, both sides of the patch. Then I dry the barrel with a dry patch, both sides. The patch I just used for the drying now goes into the Windex to be the wet patch after the next shot. My T/C likes to be clean too.
I am shooting pre-lubed patches that I purchased with Natural Lube 1000. Shooting Hornady .490 RB. The only reason I am not shoooting black powder is I couldn't find anyone carrying anything other than Pyrodex. Guess I'll be cleaning between shots and relubing the patches.
Thanks
Thanks
