Taking a flintlock i to the RSA

[Buff1958]

I talked to Ed, my outfitter. He said a few years ago they changed the rules; to keep black powder now has the same requirements as explosives. So they no longer do muzzleloader hunts. We didn't get into the substitutes.
I wish you good luck and great success.

My outfitter used to book muzzleloader hunts in SA. I've known him for 23 years. He owns a lodge close to Port Elizabeth. I would think He knows what the current regs are.

My guy owns a construction company and is working on a permit to store black powder……
It is not the end of the world if he can’t work it out….. I will enjoy the trip just as much setting with my grandson.

I have worked a couple of safaris as a guide for Danie so he will not have a problem with us setting alone .

I have not been back in 5 years and I am really missing Africa

 

[Buff1958]

I have to ask, what bore, bullet, and charge would you use for Buffalo, if you Could hunt one there with Black powder?

Gemsbok are on my short list, I think they are fabulous looking animals.

As I said, I've never been to Africa, but know many who have. I've been attending DSC since 2001. Only missed during covid.

I have a .69 caliber October country sporting rifle. I load it with 225 grains of FF. I have killed several deer and a truck load of hogs with it. I would hunt with it more but it is awful heavy to carry around.

 

[Buff1958]

I am glad it is heavy

 

[Daveboone]

There are several very good hunting oriented travel agents...We used Travel Express when we went to SA two years ago, and they were invaluable. If you are not using an agent....especially the first time going to Africa, it is a good idea. Things go wrong in Africa like no where else. The agent also will be a wealth of information about laws/regulations. I know getting black powder can be very difficult there, and many promises for it arent kept. Basically, if your outfitter does not have in possession black powder....dont count on it. Obtaining even the basics of hunting gear/ equipment/ammo is near impossible over there.

 

[waksupi]

For Canada, contact: https://rcmp.ca/en/firearms.

I used to go up to shoot competition and varmints frequently, being only 80 miles from the border. Back then flintlocks were no problem to transport, but under Trudeau, who knows?
They never did inspect my firearms, although when I took cartridge rifles and handguns up, there is a form you need to fill out in triplicate, which you can do ahead of time at home.
It's a good idea to check in with the US Border Patrol and get paperwork acknowledging the firearms belonged to you before leaving the country. Otherwise, if you get a jerk when you come back in to the US, they could try to charge a tariff, or want a Form 6 import document.

 

[Eterry]

I have a .69 caliber October country sporting rifle. I load it with 225 grains of FF. I have killed several deer and a truck load of hogs with it. I would hunt with it more but it is awful heavy to carry around.

A 69 PRB should weigh about an ounce, that's right at what my 14 bore RB's weigh. I bet with a hardened ball it will do the job.
My 416 is light; 9# w/o scope. An old friend says," recoil is momentary, gravity works all day."
A PH friend carrid a Lott, but after a close call bought a 577 Double how hecarries that 16 pound thing. I'll never know.

 

[brazosland]

Another challenge will be getting real blackpowder for your flintlock when you arrive at your hunting destination. It’s a no go on airlines, even in checked luggage.

Went to Namibia a number years ago and planned to take a flintlock. Requested a photograph of the container for the powder the PH would be getting for me. It turned out to be a sub that the supplier said would work fine. Didn’t get the photograph until a week or so before wheels up time. I went to Africa, but the flintlock stayed home.

And don’t even consider hiding backpowder in shell casings for a cartridge type gun, though I’m sure someone will be along shortly suggesting you do that.

Go ahead an tell me why you can’t put black powder in shell casings?

I have done it on multiple occasions crossing international boundaries. 45-70 cases with a 185 grain 45 ACP bullet each hold 90 grns of 3F.

Carried a muzzleloader and a 45-70 lever gun on the trips.

Tell me again why it won’t work?

 

[brazosland]

I have to ask, what bore, bullet, and charge would you use for Buffalo, if you Could hunt one there with Black powder?

Gemsbok are on my short list, I think they are fabulous looking animals.

As I said, I've never been to Africa, but know many who have. I've been attending DSC since 2001. Only missed during covid.

I would use my Whitworth.

 

[Buff1958]

Go ahead an tell me why you can’t put black powder in shell casings?

I have done it on multiple occasions crossing international boundaries. 45-70 cases with a 185 grain 45 ACP bullet each hold 90 grns of 3F.

Carried a muzzleloader and a 45-70 lever gun on the trips.

Tell me again why it won’t work?

Wow …… I hope i don’t end up on a 16 hour flight that you have smuggled an explosive on.

Reason why……. South African prisons are no where I want to visit for 20 years

 

[SDSmlf]

Go ahead an tell me why you can’t put black powder in shell casings?

I have done it on multiple occasions crossing international boundaries. 45-70 cases with a 185 grain 45 ACP bullet each hold 90 grns of 3F.

Carried a muzzleloader and a 45-70 lever gun on the trips.

Tell me again why it won’t work?

So you are saying it is legal to transport blackpowder for use in muzzleloading guns at your final destination in shell casings on domestic and international flights, or just that you have done it?

 

[brazosland]

Show me where loaded ammunition has specific exemptions related to black powder in the loaded ammo. There are none. Even ammo loaded with black powder can be shipped via normal carriers just like any other ammunition, several companies sell it.

From the BATFE web page:

“However, an exemption at 27 CFR Part 555.141(b) states that these regulations do not apply to black powder:

• That is commercially manufactured.
• In quantities not exceeding 50 pounds.
• Is intended to be used solely for the sporting, recreational or cultural purposes in antique firearms or antique devices.”

Black powder is a Class A explosive only because of its ease of ignition. As stated above, the regulations related to its transportation and storage are waived if it’s for personal use.TSA has regulations on transporting “loose” powder. None that address loaded ammo.

So, where are the regulations you want to show me that address loaded ammunition and the specific type of powder it’s loaded with and transport of same?

 

[brazosland]

So you are saying it is legal to transport blackpowder for use in muzzleloading guns at your final destination in shell casings on domestic and international flights, or just that you have done it?

It’s legal to transport loaded ammunition.

 

[brazosland]

Wow …… I hope i don’t end up on a 16 hour flight that you have smuggled an explosive on.

Reason why……. South African prisons are no where I want to visit for 20 years

Does RSA not permit ammunition loaded with black powder? If so, then by all means don’t bring any of that. I’m not suggesting you break any law.

I also would never travel to RSA. The folks running that country are not friends of Freedom…they do like Freedom’s money tho…

 

[SDSmlf]

Show me where loaded ammunition has specific exemptions related to black powder in the loaded ammo. There are none. Even ammo loaded with black powder can be shipped via normal carriers just like any other ammunition, several companies sell it.

From the BATFE web page:

“However, an exemption at 27 CFR Part 555.141(b) states that these regulations do not apply to black powder:

• That is commercially manufactured.
• In quantities not exceeding 50 pounds.
• Is intended to be used solely for the sporting, recreational or cultural purposes in antique firearms or antique devices.”

Black powder is a Class A explosive only because of its ease of ignition. As stated above, the regulations related to its transportation and storage are waived if it’s for personal use.TSA has regulations on transporting “loose” powder. None that address loaded ammo.

So, where are the regulations you want to show me that address loaded ammunition and the specific type of powder it’s loaded with and transport of same?

So this covers you when you land in whatever county you are traveling to?

Maybe call an agency like TSA and ask if it is okie dokie to have a class 1.1 explosive (aka blackpowder) in your luggage (with no special marking)?

I know when I went to Namibia, the outfitter warned me to not even consider it. I was also told the same thing by a number of outfitters at International Club International shows. Maybe I could refer them to you as a subject matter expert?

 

[SDSmlf]

Ok, so it’s legal to have blackpowder in cartridge cases for use in a muzzleloader in your luggage. I guess my outfitter was the stupid one for bringing it up.

Can’t find the exact documents, but below is some of what I received. I also remember being told that an ignorance of the law would not valid defense because placing blackpowder in cartridges was an obvious attempt to skirt the law.

 

[brazosland]

Ok, so it’s legal to have blackpowder in cartridge cases for use in a muzzleloader in your luggage. I guess my outfitter was the stupid one for bringing it up.

Can’t find the exact documents, but below is some of what I received. I also remember being told that an ignorance of the law would not valid defense because placing blackpowder in cartridges was an obvious attempt to skirt the law.

View attachment 340671

Those are very interesting regulations relating to the commercial manufacture and shipment of hazardous materials via commercial carrier. Not sure how that applies to individuals with materials that are specifically exempted as quoted above.

Additionally, there are very specific requirements for packaging of loaded ammunition for personal travel via airlines. As long as those are satisfied then the relevant statutes have been addressed.

Regulations applicable to commercial enterprises are very different than those applying to individuals.

If you had any business experience, you would know that. It’s also a good practice to not get your legal advice from Cops. But, you are free to believe whomever you care to believe.

 

[SDSmlf]

Those are very interesting regulations relating to the commercial manufacture and shipment of hazardous materials via commercial carrier. Not sure how that applies to individuals with materials that are specifically exempted as quoted above.

Additionally, there are very specific requirements for packaging of loaded ammunition for personal travel via airlines. As long as those are satisfied then the relevant statutes have been addressed.

Regulations applicable to commercial enterprises are very different than those applying to individuals.

If you had any business experience, you would know that. It’s also a good practice to not get your legal advice from Cops. But, you are free to believe whomever you care to believe.

Curious where you have gotten your legal advice? My mistake for quoting actual federal government regulations (AKA the ‘cops’). I know you are just holding back your references and facts on TSA and various other countries’ rules and regulations just tease this conversation along.

Have a good night.

You sure do a good job of being a smart ass without actually having any facts to back up the smart…

Opinions are like…well, you. So enjoy your opinions.

I believe you might just be stupid enough to call TSA and ask that question…and be very happy that the obvious answer is the one you get…

 

[Tenring]

I have a .69 caliber October country sporting rifle. I load it with 225 grains of FF. I have killed several deer and a truck load of hogs with it. I would hunt with it more but it is awful heavy to carry around.

That's pretty gutsy resting the rifle in that deer rack, you know gravity and all.

 

[longcruise]

@fleener What say you about all the above regarding transportation of BP.

 

[longcruise]

Probably to kill really big and mean things. That is more recoil than I d like to do but probably not as bad as being stomped by big and mean.