taking aim

[Col. Batguano]

Here's what shooting sports USA says about the standing position; https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/11/15/3-position-by-the-numbers-part-1-standing/

Fact is that if you use your support arm as braced against your body in a target rifle position (feet roughly in line with the bore in the direction of the target) you can NOT get in to position without dropping the muzzle down on the target.

If you use a more open stance and use your shoulder muscles to support the gun (like is typical in shotgun shooting) then you can and probably do raise the muzzle to acquire the target.

 

[Scipio]

CB:

It is pretty easy to come down and hold with a light air rifle using a ergonomically designed stock, fully adjustable butt plates for cant / cast on or off, butt hooks, very high sights, etc. Not so easy with a barrel heavy muzzle loader using period designed stocks and low sights.

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[Don Steele]

Thank you Colonel. There's a bunch of excellent information in that link for offhand shooting we can all benefit from.
It's very difficult to achieve good results shooting offhand if the rifle doesn't fit the shooter. For our traditional rifles, getting a rifle to fit involves woodworking. On a competition air rifle, it means making a number of fine adjustments for each parameter. At the end of the day..it is, (or should be) all same-same. On the other hand, if one is determined to shoot a particular style or school of longrifle, fit be damned, then you're unlikely to achieve the best results. As to the young lady shown in the link, I can't identify the model she is holding, but a Walther LG400 Alutec "economy" model suitable for that level of competition weighs 9.7 lbs. You can pick one up online for about $2200.00
If my comments have strayed too far from the rules of this forum I apologize and will not be offended if they are deleted. :hatsoff:

 

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Don:

Correct, including the price. 9 pounds seems a lot unless one considers these 10 M air rifles are very well balanced. Muzzle loaders for the most part are super barrel heavy.

The question involves coming up or down into the black. Initially, maybe but for the final entry and shot, unlikely with a blade front sight because the only way a shooter can see where the top of the blade is in relation to what ever sight picture he likes using is by coming up from 6 or in from the sides. Coming down from 12 and you can not see where the top of the blade is in relation to the black until the blade has completely crossed the black and is heading out the bottom. Then the shooter stops the movement and comes back up.

Aperture sights allow a shooter to see the black very easily from any direction so as the sights are moving towards the black, even if from 12 down, their eyes can see direction and speed and their bodies and finger can adjust accordingly. I doubt their final entry and shot is taken top down, though. Most likely bottom up or from a side. Reason is simple. If you 'jerk' the trigger the barrel goes down. Combine that with moving the barrel down to begin with and you go out the bottom. Get too aggressive on the trigger going up and most likely you stop the rifle instead of pulling it down so at least you can get a score although it won't be center.

A competitive match .22 or air rifle is relatively easy to hold but it too can't be held perfectly steady so if a person watches something like the Olympics when the camera is showing the muzzle and shooter from the front, you will notice the barrel is always moving. Also that the movement sets a pattern. The shooter sees this pattern of movement and is comfortable with it so they can generally break the shot successfully. Yes, they are shooting while the barrel is moving. Just that it isn't moving a whole lot and they recognize what is right and can shoot at the right time. They are very comfortable with this which is why they are in the Olympics.

No matter which way a person goes for a entry and shot into the target, it is always better to break the shot while the barrel is going towards the black than away from the black. Much higher chance of scoring. If you go up and do this, you can see the blade and entire black so you have a much better chance of score. Since going down means you won't see where the top of the blade is in relation to the center of the black until you have crossed the center of the black, you will most likely go out the bottom.

I do not envy 10 M air rifle shooting. I believe they have a certain amount of sighters then shoot 60 consecutive shots for record standing in an hour or so. Super hard on the back which is why they use those stands to rest the rifle between shots.

Shoot an 8 and you go from 1 to 10. Very demanding sport.

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[Rifleman1776]

Coming down from 12 and you can not see where the top of the blade is in relation to the black until the blade has completely crossed the black and is heading out the bottom.

As I was taught and do (caveat: I am not a champion shooter), as that sight comes down through the black the brain unconsciously fires the rifle right into the 'X' ring. There should be no "stopping" then pulling of the trigger. With practice it becomes a reflexive action. In fact, it is nearly impossible to hold the barrel absolutely still. The way some champions shoot you might think they hold still right on the 'X'. But, in reality they use the 'pass through' technique. (now some champion is going to come along and tell me I'm wrong. :redface: That's OK, I would love to learn how they do it.)

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

as that sight comes down through the black the brain unconsciously fires

That all sounds good except I was always taught: You are never suppose to know the exact mili second the gun will fire. Hold steady as you can while squeezing the trigger. Squeeze Squeeze Squeeze. We all have wobble, some have a 6 ring wobble and some have a 9 or 8 wobble. Not too many have a 10 ring wobble. If it works for you, go for it, it won't for me. Shooting while on the moving down swing makes me think of wing shooting with a shotgun.
(PS I too am not an expert either by a long shot :rotf: )
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

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RM76:

Not with a Blade or Post front sight. When standing, you find it about evenly divided between holding some sort of 'Line of White' with the top of the post or blade being held a certain amount below the aiming black or some variance of a Center Hold. Consistency of seeing the same sight picture every single time is the deciding factor. Some are very comfortable with a line of white, others perhaps favoring a bit low in the black, others holding center. Very rare that a guy shooting a blade or post will use a high favor in the black when shooting off hand. This is because I think they like being able to see the middle of the black in relation to their blade or post. Also very rare that they will 'count scoring rings' as the blade or post goes through the black because they have to focus on the middle of the blade and the middle of a target at the same time. Not uncommon for guys to 'count scoring rings' using aperture sights and breaking the trigger as they see a 10 while heading into the target. This is because match grade aperture sights have adjustable diopters which allow one to basically bring the target and front sight to the same focal plane -- much like a F stop on a camera. So you can see the black and the front sight clearly enough to shoot on a cadence type of thing. Not what I like. I like breaking the shot at a certain point that I can see confidently.

Also, for target shooting with a post or blade, some guys like having the blade or post the same diameter as the aiming black. This lets them get a better visual of their hold in terms of left and right if they use a center hold. Guys with poor eyesight may like using a front post or blade that is at least half as much wider than the black. They claim they can see the center of the post or blade easier. I wouldn't recommend a blade or post that is thinner than the black because it is very hard to get and maintain the same sight picture.

Anyway -- here is something a guy can test for himself. Put a dot on the wall that is as big as you see the width of your front sight. Get into the best standing position you can and although you won't dry fire, practice your entry into the target. When you think you got it down, rest for a minute then make your entry and 'shot' coming down from 12. I guarantee you that you will pass completely through the black and have to come back up from 6. Try it coming up from 6. You will go too far into the black but you won't go through it because your eyes and brain can see its movement and speed and will control it to an extent. You may find it will stop in the middle for around a second. That will take you by surprise at first but once you get used to seeing it, you will recognize its pattern and have complete confidence in a good shot -- resulting in a good shot.

Anyway -- doesn't matter if a guy is competitive or not with this stuff. A weekend shooter will probably try to do the same thing as a Olympic competitor when it comes to sights and sight pictures. The differences are measured in how well the guy has trained their eyes to see and finger to move.

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