taking aim

[Vaino]

I started basic in Nov. of 1952 and when at the range wasn't given instructions on how to aim or shoot. Having done a lot of shooting prior to the Army, I just shot like I always did and qualified w/ the Garand.....which by the way was the premier rifle of WWll and the Korean conflict in which I participated.

Perhaps my aiming at the target w/o any up or down bbl movement was the result of grouse hunting in my early years.....grouse require fast shots enabled by quick mounting and a fast pull of the trigger when you're on.

Have used my grouse hunting experience for jump shooting deer and there's no time to adjust a hold.

But....I don't do much target shooting so can't really comment on that......except for my Army experience.....Fred

 

[Artificer]

It was just natural for me to start with the muzzle slightly above the target, ease the muzzle down to the top of the paper and then slowly ease down until the sights were on the bull. I would then squeeze off a shot at that point. Was it a USMC approved method? I don't remember, it's been way too many years but it is how I did it.

Marine Corps and Army "Known Distance" Ranges of any significant size had large "Number Boards" above each target so the shooter could ensure he/she was shooting at the correct target. You, Fred and I all fired on the 200 through 500 yard lines for Qualification with those number boards above the targets. So it was natural to line up on the Number board above the target and then drop the aim of the rifle down onto your target. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of?

So there was and is still a good reason on a Long Distance Target range to begin aiming above one's target and drop it down into one's target bullseye.

I don't know how the Army's newer Pop Up ranges that only go to 300 yards are set up, as I've never fired on that kind of range.

And yes, Gents, the M1 was and still is one Heck of a Rifle.

Gus

 

[necchi]

Interesting point,, could explain a lot.
I've been watching this thread a bit and it seem's like with many of our individual shooting skills it boils down to how we're trained,, or who and how we where taught.
So far it's about 60/40 in favor of drop down.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

So far it's about 60/40 in favor of drop down

Interesting to see the varied preferences. With all do respect to anyone who prefers their method of coming down. In competitive shooting or hunting where the target is small I pose this question: Why would you want to cover the target with your barrel before you can zero in on it.? I have a hard time "understanding" this thought. This is not criticism, just trying to understand the reason one wants to cover their target.
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

[smo]

I have always cocked the rifle with the muzzle at an upward 45* angle or less making sure my index finger was off of the trigger.

Once the rifle is cocked it’s mounted just outside the shoulder joint and on plane with the target.

I’m not saying this is the correct way it’s just the way I’ve always done it.

But my shooting is all done on my property into a safe backstop.

 

[BrownBear]

So far it's about 60/40 in favor of drop down

Interesting to see the varied preferences. With all do respect to anyone who prefers their method of coming down. In competitive shooting or hunting where the target is small I pose this question: Why would you want to cover the target with your barrel before you can zero in on it.? I have a hard time "understanding" this thought. This is not criticism, just trying to understand the reason one wants to cover their target.
Flintlocklar :wink:

I've been reflecting on it a lot too, going so far as pulling my favorite hunting rifle from the safe and doing some experimental shouldering and thinking back to all the hunting shots I can recall.

For me the biggest difference is "time allowed." It's a rare experience for me to have an animal standing in the open like a contented old cow chewing its cud. Just seems like shooting opportunities are mostly too brief for the deliberate shooting typical on the range. But it's further "complicated" for me by the more than 20 years in my past of rapid-fire "action" type handgun competition where it's all about time and multiple targets. The first target is take on the way up and sideways, but all that follow are going down and sideways as I recover from recoil and move from one to the next. Sure I'm coming "down" out of recoil, but it's more like a 45 degree angle that flattens on the bottom to take the target while swinging sideways, keeping the inertia of the "sweep" going sideways even as the gun kicks up on path between each target.

More than I wanted to say on a non-muzzleloading topic, but it has lots in common with firing the second shot using my trusty 12 SxS Pietta or clanking away at a rushing rabbit with my cap revolver.

Through it all, I want my "target" above the barrel and visible as lots can (and does!) change before the trigger squeeze.

Queried a couple of buddies about it while fishing yesterday. One is mostly a range rat and only hunts a little each year. He's all about deliberate shooting and coming down on a target, but in truth isn't quick enough for many of his opportunities on game. The other has a nearly 40-year career of brown bear guiding under his belt and lots of personal hunting. His response was typical for him. "Hell, I dunno. I just see hair and shoot!" :rotf:

 

[Col. Batguano]

So far it's about 60/40 in favor of drop down

Interesting to see the varied preferences. With all do respect to anyone who prefers their method of coming down. In competitive shooting or hunting where the target is small I pose this question: Why would you want to cover the target with your barrel before you can zero in on it.? I have a hard time "understanding" this thought. This is not criticism, just trying to understand the reason one wants to cover their target.
Flintlocklar :wink:

The reason is relatively simple. First, it IS important to know you're shooting at the correct target. Until you've done it, you don't know how EASY it is to cross fire at the wrong target. They're all the same, and with limited view it certainly DOES happen. That's also why they put backer boards behind targets. To make sure the holes line up and the shot didn't come from an adjacent line position.

The other, and more important reason is one of fundamentals. When you are LOWERING your barrel (in standing position) you are compressing your body parts until they don't compress any more. Your muscles will be as relaxed as possible for the position. The goal is to use as much non-loaded muscle as possible to relax in your NPOA. If you are RAISING your barrel, you are coming from a less flexed position and using your muscles more to support the gun. That will make the amplitude of your wobble greater, particularly toward the end of a very long string.

It's just a different type of shooting than the other more rushed, and stress-enhanced stuff. Neither is wrong, but the applications and the definitions of a "successful" shot are different.

 

[necchi]

holes line up and the shot didn't come from an adjacent line position.

The other, and more important reason is one of fundamentals. When you are LOWERING your barrel (in standing position) you are compressing your body parts until they don't compress any more. Your muscles will be as relaxed as possible for the position. The goal is to use as much non-loaded muscle as possible to relax in your NPOA. If you are RAISING your barrel, you are coming from a less flexed position and using your muscles more to support the gun.

Wow, How did the rifle get to the raised position in order to be dropped down? Doesn't the shooter have to use his muscles to get it up there to begin with?
If the shooter is in NPOA at the line, wouldn't he have to cross the target once during the raise,, just so he can drop back down to it? All the while using muscle energy(?)

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

First, it IS important to know you're shooting at the correct target.

Absolutely, I agree with you 100%. When ever a gun of any type is to be discharged, one needs to see and know it is a viable/correct target to shoot at. Why cover it with your barrel? When raising to shoot, the target has already been spotted, and the gun is raised to the target. Thanks for your input.
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

[SDSmlf]

Not something I would normally ”˜think’ about, so I picked up a gun (not loaded, of course) and paid attention to how I naturally settled on a target and lined up the sights. Confirmed I am definitely with the raise your weapon to the target crowd. Once you see your intended target you never lose sight of it, the entire field is visible over the sights/barrel as you bring it up. Only see coming down on the target as good for some style points or the result of recoil on follow up shots with a six shooter as previously mentioned.

For target shooting I don’t buy the come down from the number board suggestion. Come up on the target and you will never have the number board or the target out of your field of view. Anyone ever shoot trap (with a ML shotgun or fowling piece of course) and come down on clay bird? I come up on it and touch off as the front sight/bead comes up to the bottom of the bird. Doubt I could hit anything coming down on a clay bird, at least on the trap field.

Off topic a bit, but I worked very hard at making sure when drawing a bow back I keep it pointed slightly down. Raising it to 45 degrees as some suggested doing with gun is a real game spooker. Usually means you are working to hard to draw your bow. No excuse with a rifle or pistol in my opinion.

And to go way off topic with Artificer on the M1, I agree with him. General George S. Patton called it "the greatest battle implement ever devised".

 

[azmntman]

paid attention to how I naturally settled on a target and lined up the sights. Confirmed I am definitely with the raise your weapon to the target crowd. Once you see your intended target you never lose sight of it

ff Yes, how many of us teaching shooting a scoped rifle :redface: tell the student shooter to stare at the target as you bring the scope to your eye? Doing this makes sure they can get on target quickly VS the moving the scope around for 10 min while the target (deer) wanders slowly away :shake:

Same with a muzzle loader, stare at target as you bring the gun to your eyes.

 

[Percy]

I'm with the "upswing" crowd myself. I've been doing it this way for a real long time, just seems natural. Never thought much about it until I started reading this thread.

Most of the TV bow hunters have a heck of a time trying to draw their bows. Where it's pointed during their struggle is anybody's guess.

Percy

 

[Col. Batguano]

We've been talking apples and oranges here. Quick field shooting and target acquisition is different shooting than formal target match shooting. Just watch how the best of the best do each of them and you'll have your answer about which technique is best for each application.

 

[BrownBear]

...which technique is best for each application.

Best for them. How many of the competitors spend time hunting? Same question in reverse, how many of the hunters devote their lives and interests to the range?

I'll provide an insight from another field. All the way through college I was a serious field archery competitor and hunter, scoring very well on deer as well as in matches. I was on the fringe of the pro indoor archery circuit, shooting several days a week with one of the top 3 pros in the country and rep for the largest target archery company. These guys were (are) so good that they had to carefully place their arrows within the 1" bull at 25 yards (or maybe meters, don't recall), just so one arrow brushing another wouldn't deflect it out of the center. Yeah, they're that good.

Nuff said about them. Their match credentials were stellar.

My bud was having a visit from three other pros and asked me to take all of them deer hunting, to which I quickly agreed.

Then it got interesting. I got both my allowed deer the first morning. Two of the four guys had to walk back to the trucks for more arrows after losing all their first batch in missed shots at deer. All of them returned at the end of the day with only an arrow or two apiece.

Outside the law, they asked me for "help" getting their deer. By day 3 all 10 of our tags were punched, and I got 7 of them. These world class archers freely acknowledged that they were the worst hunters and game shots in the world! :rotf:

 

[Artificer]

And then there is difference amongst hunters depending on their hunting experiences, that also may explain something about the Pro Archers you mentioned.

I grew up hunting rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, quail, ducks, geese, raccoons; but no deer. Iowa only had a lottery draw for deer and that "lottery tag" could be on the other side of Iowa. Since we could not afford to travel to hunt, Dad never bothered trying for one of those tags.

When we "re-immigrated" to Virginia, we could not believe how so many hunters who had grown up deer hunting, would miss so many times on such "large" game animals like Deer or even smaller Turkeys that really don't fly that fast. As it happened, most of the hunters had not grown up hunting rabbits or quail, so they never learned to lead their targets correctly and thus most often shot behind or sometimes ahead of their targets.

Gus

 

[Coal-Cracker]

...

I don't know how the Army's newer Pop Up ranges that only go to 300 yards are set up, as I've never fired on that kind of range.

...

The last time I qual'd was about 6 years ago, so forgive my memory...

Ranges are set up with lanes much wider than what you would have been used to. The ranges we routinely shot at DIX were separated by a treeline to separate lanes. Targets pop up anywhere from 50 to 300 meters, for a specified amount of time. 40 rounds for 40 targets. 3 designated shooting positions. Failure to engage the target within the time frame results in a "miss." On occasion, multiple targets pop up simultaneously at different ranges and must be engaged within the allotted time.

 

[In Over My Head]

When you are LOWERING your barrel (in standing position) you are compressing your body parts until they don't compress any more. Your muscles will be as relaxed as possible for the position. The goal is to use as much non-loaded muscle as possible to relax in your NPOA. If you are RAISING your barrel, you are coming from a less flexed position and using your muscles more to support the gun. That will make the amplitude of your wobble greater, particularly toward the end of a very long string.

In the type of offhand we're (not supposed to be) talking about, it is about supporting the rifle as much as possible with bone instead of muscle tension. Facing 45* to the target, I see and feel the butt go to the exactly correct spot, put my cheek in exactly the correct spot. As I lower, my support arm is against my chest and I am twisting towards the target as the weight settles against the arm that is supported against my torso and that arm has slid across my torso (belly) more or less into a bind. The right elbow is high and the only muscle tension is pulling the rifle horizontally into my shoulder as the weight of the rifle settles onto my left arm which is supported by my torso. If the sights don't come up right on the X I raise it again and adjust my feet for windage and the location on my shoulder for elevation. The rifle more or less cannot go below the aim point because my arm is propping it up, not muscles.

But! The rifle is not 60" long, the target is 200 yards away and the NMLRA requires our rifles to be grasped by the left hand - not resting on your knuckles or supported under a long magazine - so your arm wouldn't be long enough to hold a muzzleloading rifle high enough while supporting the rifle against your torso (in competition).

 

[Rifleman1776]

the target is 200 yards away and the NMLRA requires our rifles to be grasped by the left hand - not resting on your knuckles or supported under a long magazine - so your arm wouldn't be long enough to hold a muzzleloading rifle high enough while supporting the rifle against your torso (in competition).

True. That is why the proposal I'm going to make to my club will include the use of stand-up cross sticks. The low kind of X-sticks just won't work in my club. We have only one member under the age of 70. That getting down and up 20 or more times in a day just ain't gonna happen.

 

[BrownBear]

That getting down and up 20 or more times in a day just ain't gonna happen.

You too!!!!

:rotf:

 

[Scipio]

Spud:

In the Army, you bring the carbine, pistol, MG to the target in the most efficient way, without flagging someone.

The notion of having the barrel pointed upwards then down is more a off hand thing and is dated. It was used in the era when guys light loaded the 06 for standing (less recoil) and they thought that by doing this motion, the powder would settle uniformly to the base of the long 06 cartridge. May be true, probably doesn't matter at 200 yards.

Also could well be a 'ritual' that competitors in most sports use to mentally prepare for a shot.

Today you find most put the stock in the shoulder and kind of roll the stock and rifle into their cheek when standing. Makes for a pretty tight hold and would be useful with any type of rifle or carbine.

Personally I do not encourage anyone to take a shot with a barrel moving down from 12. Almost guaranteed to shoot low due to a more aggressive and fast trigger pull associated with off hand.

With HP and Biathlon my best results (standing) are taking it in from either 6 or about 2. Periodically my position is so good it moves into the target from 6 and holds for about a second.

Yes, there are differences in how guys approach the target depending on their position. I am only talking about standing here.

Scipio