Tall tale or not

[Dphar]

Actually the range was 300 yards and Murphy got him on the third try. The longest round ball shot
in the Revolutionary War that I have read was made by Captain Ewald of the Jaegers during the siege of Charleston SC. It was right at 500 yards. he shot his own personal hunting rifle not an issued jaeger. The Hessian Jaegers liked shooting from mountain top to mountain top. It was not uncommon
For a Jaeger hunting rifle to have flip sights out to 400 yards. My reproduction 1776 Pistor Jaeger rifle has flip sights out to 300 and it was a crude issued gun compared to the personally owned hunting rifles used by the Jaegers at the first of the war.

Must be much smaller mountains that we have here.
500 is about all one could get out of a RB and then it needs about 1800 fps at the muzzle for a 54. Hitting anything at 500 yards needs 40-50 ft of hold over and sighter shots. Very steep trajectory at the target.
A 54 with 100 grains of powder would not shoot to 1000 yards for a friend of mine regardless of elevation.
300 is tough but doable. Though its easier with a .66-.69 caliber and a leaf rear sight. But this still needs 140-180 grains of powder to get the velocity up.
I shot 4 shots at 300 with my 50 and the last was a very near miss.

 

[jaw69]

I just talked to a old time builder he can hit a gallon jug at 500 yards with a 45 cal 500 grain bullet not flint though. His long range flinter is about 250 or so. At Friendship Indiana NMLRA shoot in July and Aug they have 1000 yard shoots They regulary hit man targets and smaller with open sights!! It is amazing hearing the target ring from that distance. look it up on youtube They shoot with Chunk Guns 6 to 7 feet long

 

y'all know that during the revolutionary war, general frazier (british) was picked off at the battle of saratoga at 800 yards right?

"Picked off" or hit by accident? Is there documentation for this "sniping"?

 

[Larry Pletcher]

There is no 1000 yd range at Friendship. Jefferson Proving Grounds is sometimes used to shoot long range bullet guns at their 1000 yd range.

The longest range at Friendship is 500 yds. There is a ram silhouete and the Mini-Creedmore set at 500 yds. These are shot with 500-540 gr. paper patch or grease groove bullets in percussion target rifles. I know a number of these shooters, having shot with them at Friendship and at Oak Ridge. I won't say that an open sight is never used, but none of my friends do. The hot setup right now is a tang mounted aperature sight from a maker like Lee Shaver.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[bkovire]

"sniped", oct 1777 battle of saratoga, as to the distance, 300 yards to 800 yards, i asked the usahar, that is united stats army historical army records for the report, 2 -3 month wait, the shot was made by timothy murphy, of the Kentucky riflemen. depends on whom tells the tell, the brits, on lockers, the Co, or the person him self, BTW he is said to have used the side by side rifle, in an other, rifles, we handed up to him.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

As far as documented historical accuracy, Two British Light Infantry officers stated that a good
American Rifleman can make head shots at two hundred yards and body shots a 300 yards. These officers were George Hanger and Ewald himself.
Hanger also wrote about the time a rifleman fired a shot that passed between himself and Tarleton hitting the buglers horse. The shot was made downhill on a long streight road. Hanger knew the road well and it was 400 yards from the top of the hill where the rifleman fired the shot to the bottom of the hill where the three men were setting on there horses close together.
One thing you have to consider when talking about
18th century rifle shooting, the riflemen were trained to shoot off a rest or prone or kneeling.
It is very hard to document 18th century offhand
sharp shooting with a rifle gun.
I try to shoot 200 yards a couple of times a year
and 300 yards every chance I get. My Ferguson Rifle has a 300 yard sight pin, I would hate to be downrange at 300 yards from that beast!
There were probably few chances to take 300 yards shots in the 18th century

 

[F.G. Ford]

If you shoot enough balls up into the air, one of them will hit something, comming down! Mostly the ground, but sometimes one person is unfortunate.
Ask any "*******" in Iraq!
Old Ford

 

[bkovire]

if you like good reading this is it, the history of the riflemen-sharpshooters it will tell you how long the long shoots were.if you are interested in this, pt me.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

It wasn't 800 yards and a number of Morgan's riflemen were shooting at him. Murphy is supposedly the guy who finally hit him at 300 yards. Lots of questions about whether or not Murphy was really the fellow that did it. That distance has been touted as being 400 yards and also 500 yards, but that's the first time I heard it stretched out to 800 yards! Nonetheless it was a fine shot with a flintlock rifle.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[BadHorse]

y'all know that during the revolutionary war, general frazier (british) was picked off at the battle of saratoga at 800 yards right?

"Picked off" or hit by accident? Is there documentation for this "sniping"?

actually this one shot is very well documented. it took the rifleman 2 tries to get general frazier, and yes he was a kentuckian!

the thing is, there are some very well documented long range shots with front stuffers. for example, the hawkens rifle doesnt even think twice about hold a decent pattern at 500 yards, then you have schutzens which live for the long shot.

now for the "blow hard" so he lied, take him to a range and hand him a rifle and tell him to "show me"

 

[rabjr]

As far as documented historical accuracy, Two British Light Infantry officers stated that a good
American Rifleman can make head shots at two hundred yards and body shots a 300 yards. These officers were George Hanger and Ewald himself.
Hanger also wrote about the time a rifleman fired a shot that passed between himself and Tarleton hitting the buglers horse. The shot was made downhill on a long streight road. Hanger knew the road well and it was 400 yards from the top of the hill where the rifleman fired the shot to the bottom of the hill where the three men were setting on there horses close together.
One thing you have to consider when talking about
18th century rifle shooting, the riflemen were trained to shoot off a rest or prone or kneeling.
It is very hard to document 18th century offhand
sharp shooting with a rifle gun.
I try to shoot 200 yards a couple of times a year
and 300 yards every chance I get. My Ferguson Rifle has a 300 yard sight pin, I would hate to be downrange at 300 yards from that beast!
There were probably few chances to take 300 yards shots in the 18th century

This I can believe, we used to shoot at 200 yards back when I had good eyes and they were surprisingly accurate. Never had a longer range to try longer shots but we got pretty good hitting bowling pins or Pepsi liter bottles regularly.

 

[bkovire]

the kentucky'ns were not mil trained they were "back woods men" they could hit up to 900-1,100 yards with open sites, i have been looking for the history of such men, boon, crocket, murphy, now what gets me is thees men used 45cal rifles,or so it is told now i know some history is stories filled with :bull, but if you can find the name in the us records, the :bull: , is no longer :bull: but fact, boon did in deed serv with A jackson,s troops, gorge W in 1775 recurted 1,500 of thees talented men, now i know that we have no use for shooting that far other than sport, and good luck finding open land that will let you shoot that far, but back then it was not sport it was for food,skins,and yes killing. i am know expert but i do like to tell what i find. fed back is always welcome. so far only murphy has been found,with 50+ versions of the story, to us records have 450yards, the one i am waiting for is the units report. it will have type of arm used distance, how many shoots, ect. ect.

 

[Okwaho]

I realize that this thread began as to the long range accuracy of flintlock long arms but the National Rifle Association's reprint of "Civil War Small Arms" featuring two articles by Jac Weller, "Shooting Confederate Infantry Arms". Parts I and II" is germane to any discussion of long range accuracy of muzzle loading infantry arms.Weller picked a number of "original" arms including a few flintlock arms as well as original ammo. He also discussed this CW ammo. Distances ranged up to 1000 yards. Apparently from 400 yards out Weller used a target measuring six square feet and listed the number of hits out of 15 shots.This is a seldom seen but very interesteing paperback that was reprinted several times by the NRA. It usually sells for about $12.00 on the after book market when available.I hope this helps when discussing long distance shooting of infantry arms. Incidentally,as per Joe Kindig Jr.,{Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age} it is highly unlikely that Murphy used a double barreled rifle in 1777.
Tom Patton

 

[bkovire]

i will find the name of rifle, it is a double brl. found it is a golchor. so what is the history of this rifle?

 

[Okwaho]

i will find the name of rifle, it is a double brl.

The cite quoted in my post is from Joe Kindig Jr's monumental "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age"{1960};PP.4,36.Mr.Kindig{P.36} felt that the double barreled Kentucky rifle was extremely rare in the Revolutionary War period and that he had only seen one or two examples.He further stated that he felt that double barreled rifles were largely products of the 19th century.The earliest double barreled rifle that I have seen published is the William Antes wender {swivel breech} rifle illustrated by George Shumway in "Rifles of Colonial America" No. 54, PP.232-235.George felt that:
"It was probably made during the decade of the 1780's or a few years on either side thereof"

This rifle was donated to the Kansas State Historical Society in Topeka early in the 20th century so that the provenance is probably unknown.
Timothy Murphy may well have killed General Frazier at Saratoga.I doubt we will ever really know for sure but regardless this shot and the man who may have made it are now part of the folklore of the American Revolution. :bow: :v
Tom Patton

 

[Okwaho]

i will find the name of rifle, it is a double brl. found it is a golchor. so what is the history of this rifle?

I can find only two references to the name Golcher:
1. James Golcher Birmingham,England 1835
2. James C. Golcher Philadelphia,Pa. 1846-1852
These two may be related,perhaps father and son or maybe the same man.I can find no reference to a gunsmith nanmed Golcher who built rifles.
Tom Patton :v

 

[bkovire]

james goulcher of eastton pennsylyana. is said to have made this rifle, now the rub, did he (murphy), have this at the time of his enlistment. i have found the title of a good read if interested "what manner of men".BTW this makes me want to find a flint'er!

 

[longcruise]

Two British Light Infantry officers stated that a good
American Rifleman can make head shots at two hundred yards and body shots a 300 yards. These officers were George Hanger and Ewald himself.

They may have been trying to justify positioning themselves as far from the fight as possible. :haha:

 

[bkovire]

i too have found little, but he james goulcher, or golcher did make locks. but i have found little on the rifle.

 

[bkovire]

men like murphy did indeed put fear into them, as word spread, among the ranks of the reds officers, it was well advised for them to write their wills be for going into action.