Taylor Uberti better than Uberti?

[45D]

"Debatable" means able to be debated. Debate means discussed logically - both sides get to express their views.

Sir, my open-top revolvers can shoot lower end "Ruger only" loads. That's not debatable.

Yep, and we can debate if the Sun is hot.
If you want to say the copy of a product is as good or better than the original, that's your prerogative. When the copy isn't at least built to the "design" of the original, it's really a ridiculous comparison but knock yourself out.

Mike

 

[TFoley]

Blackpowder Italian guns are and always will be a dice roll unless you can inspect them hands on before buying and cherry pick like Dr Nemeth and his colleagues who look through a bunch of Uberti Walkers to find a nice , in spec one to use for Match shooting. Plus they have a big in with Pedersoli and probably the other gunmakers

Remember that Dr Németh and his brother run a flagship gunstore in Budapest - an authorised Pedersoli main dealership. He is also a close personal friend of the entire Pedersoli family. His numerous awards, including gold medals for shooting under the flag of the MLAIC have usually been with Pedersoli firearms, so it's not really a great surprise that his guns are top-notch.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Mike - why couldn't a copy of a product that was made 150 years ago be made as good as or better than the original? Modern steel is better, modern machine tools are more consistent, tolerances are able to be held much closer, engineering has progressed, etc. Sam Colt changed his design over the years, why can't that continue? You change Colt design when you work on them now don't you?
Are you sure that the arbor bottomed out on the original design? Are there any original blueprints showing that to be the case? On the few originals I've seen, the end of the arbor didn't appear to have been machined to some specific length, it was sort of roughly tapered.
As far as the sun being hot, it needs to be hotter at least for us in Wisconsin.

 

[GYJ]

Then that's proof it is not top Quality or it would be done properly from the factory. You just proved the point that factories turn out sub standard product. Now I am done because you will not accept a fact that the manufacturer will turn out different products with lower quality.

Good Lord, man. We're not even talking about the same thing.

 

[Stantheman86]

Remember that Dr Németh and his brother run a flagship gunstore in Budapest - an authorised Pedersoli main dealership. He is also a close personal friend of the entire Pedersoli family. His numerous awards, including gold medals for shooting under the flag of the MLAIC have usually been with Pedersoli firearms, so it's not really a great surprise that his guns are top-notch.

A man of his caliber and status is definitely going to be shooting the absolute best , hand inspected Pedersoli's that have also probably been worked over by him

 

[Stantheman86]

The Italian repros are what they are, I just recently bought 2 Uberti cartridge thumb busters , and they're just fine. For $500ish they are a good buy. You're not gonna get a USFA though, you're getting a Uberti.

If the percussion repros were made to the same standard as the originals, they'd cost $2,000. Labor and materials cost less in 1860 than they do now.

Buying and shooting repro percussion revolvers is the cheapest way to do a range day besides maybe .22. No way could I afford to shoot as much .38 or even 9mm through my convertible Blackhawks as I do my .44 and .36 cap and ballers .

A new shooter can get a brasser Colt , a box of balls, wads , a tin of caps (hopefully) and if nothing else a bottle of Pyrodex P and go shooting for $300-400 depending on the gun , and if he / she enjoys shooting it, the gun will last virtually forever as long as supplies are available.

If some of them need some tweaking, that's fine, I'm glad to have access to them. If the big Govt turns it's eye to "non-FFL imported firearms" or a bunch of Fudds files a lawsuit against Taylor's or something and it's game over for affordable , mail order or over the counter cap and ballers

Just like how one guy took CCI 6-winger musket caps from us . It only takes a few people to ruin something good

 

[45D]

Mike - why couldn't a copy of a product that was made 150 years ago be made as good as or better than the original? Modern steel is better, modern machine tools are more consistent, tolerances are able to be held much closer, engineering has progressed, etc. Sam Colt changed his design over the years, why can't that continue? You change Colt design when you work on them now don't you?
Are you sure that the arbor bottomed out on the original design? Are there any original blueprints showing that to be the case? On the few originals I've seen, the end of the arbor didn't appear to have been machined to some specific length, it was sort of roughly tapered.
As far as the sun being hot, it needs to be hotter at least for us in Wisconsin.

Jim, "tuning" is / should be an enhancement to the action, the "shoot-ability" or operation of the revolver. The idea is to extend the parts life and overall life of the revolver. Dragging back an 8 lb. hammer may be fun to some but most find 4 lbs to be much more enjoyable. Everyone marvels at the Ruger coil spring action and that's exactly what I bring to the "rest" of the SA crowd. Parts independently sprung are more "adjustable" instead of over sprung which shortens the life of the spring and the part /parts.

To answer your question, yes I redesign the springing of the parts, the way the parts interact with each other for more efficiency of operation . . . but it would be foolish to interfere with or take away the structural integrity of the revolver . . . which is why the arbor setup is so important. It's the very "backbone" of the open-top design.

Maybe you missed my post about how all the originals I've handled and disassembled for photos have had correct parts and such. The arbors did in fact bottom out and so did the one original that I did get to convert to coils, ad an action shield, action stop, bolt block, adjustable wedge bearing. It's an all numbers matching 1860 Army made in 1863. It's now heading to Turnbull for a refinish.

That being the first original I've ever drilled and tapped showed me just how much better material our copies are made of. Because the originals were built to "design", folks still shoot them today. The modern examples, even made of better materials, won't last because of inadequate adherence to design.
Some folks may want to debate the arbor fit but there's plenty of infallible proof ( from others and my own and even a manufacturer) it's absolutely necessary for a correct Colt platform build. Shooting 23Kpsi ammo in one without proper fit will "absolutely" tear it up!!

And I agree, you guys need sunshine in "cheese head" country!!!

Mike

 

[45D]

You're not gonna get a USFA though, you're getting a Uberti.

Which is exactly what the first USFA's were made from . . . and they'll shoot +p ammo just like the "all American built" USFA's will. ( just like Uberti's will )

 

[CVA Enthusiast]

YUP sure is and just because it is a Taylors box I have seen it carry another $100 to $250 needless mark up...Taylors is just an importer Like Traditions and CVA no different Uberti just sticks in whatever box is on the assembly line and ships them and YES just because a dealer has a Taylors box I have seen the needless mark up. on an auction site right now there is a Pietta 1860 Army normally $280 to $307 any where else in a traditions box, Dealer has $500 because it a Taylor`s I attempted to explain it is a Pietta read the barrel markings, IN a TAYLOR`S BOX, I was BANNED.....

 

[CVA Enthusiast]

I am looking for a Uberti 1851 London Navy. Are the Taylor Ubertis worth the extra $60 to $70? Midway has Uberti London for $350, Taylor site they are $419.

just for the taylor`s name $80 hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

 

[mushka]

I believe that any manufacturer will try and make it's product well and all parts within specifications, whether it's guns, cars, or fishing rods. Things happen like an employee isn't feeling up to snuff or a machine tool is wearing more than it should. Things aren't perfect all the time. It's the way of the world and we just sometimes have to deal with it.

 

[GYJ]

just for the taylor`s name $80 hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Anything you buy from the distributor is going to be MSRP. Not really a fair comparison.

 

[Nameless Hunter]

That's the fastest way to shave off a cam because of an ill fitted bolt . . . or scar a cylinder because of cracked / broken hand springs or bolt springs.

A brand new revolver is much easier to tune than one that needs a lot of correction to make up for. A lot of my customers have a new revolver shipped to me before they ever see them.

I was sent a new Pietta 1860 to setup for a magazine article many yrs ago. Before I could get started on it the cam was almost nonexistent. I had to remove the rest of it and install a replaceable cam.
Another thing to check for is a loose arbor (from any manufacturer) it's surprising how many are loose from the factory. The easiest way is with the arbor in a vice, wiggle the frame. If there's play, it won't get better.

Mike

I guess I'm missing something. What/where is the cam (can't find it on any parts diagrams). And what is a replaceable cam?

 

[45D]

I guess I'm missing something. What/where is the cam (can't find it on any parts diagrams). And what is a replaceable cam?

The cam is a wedge shaped sculpture ( as it is made integral with the hammer) that is what operates the bolt. It moves the bolt to unlock the cylinder and its wedge shape allows it to pass by the bolt arm to "reset" ( during hammer fall) so that it can do "it" again.
The originals and earlier reproductions had the cam as a separate part but with CNC machining, it is machined out during hammer production.

Mike

 

[Nameless Hunter]

The cam is a wedge shaped sculpture ( as it is made integral with the hammer) that is what operates the bolt. It moves the bolt to unlock the cylinder and its wedge shape allows it to pass by the bolt arm to "reset" ( during hammer fall) so that it can do "it" again.
The originals and earlier reproductions had the cam as a separate part but with CNC machining, it is machined out during hammer production.

Mike

Well, that explains it not being in a parts diagram.

 

[Stantheman86]

I honestly hope rising ammo prices cause more recreational shooters to turn to percussion revolvers......and we see an American company start turning out hand fitted Colt reproductions made from Ordnance steel, not made from regurgitated Italian parts like Colt and USFA tried, and found a balance in between the Ruger Old Army and historically correct reproductions. Kind of like the Vaquero......it looks like a Colt but inside it's more durable

I don't think many of us would turn our noses up at 1860 Armies, 51 Navies , Walkers and Dragoons that look like old Colts but use modern steel , and are properly fitted out of the box.

If they cost $1500-2000 they'd still sell every one they could make.

Even an 1862 Pocket Police NYPD Tribute revolver made from scratch would sell like crazy.

There's a big opening in the market for someone to step into.

 

[45D]

I honestly hope rising ammo prices cause more recreational shooters to turn to percussion revolvers......and we see an American company start turning out hand fitted Colt reproductions made from Ordnance steel, not made from regurgitated Italian parts like Colt and USFA tried, and found a balance in between the Ruger Old Army and historically correct reproductions. Kind of like the Vaquero......it looks like a Colt but inside it's more durable

I don't think many of us would turn our noses up at 1860 Armies, 51 Navies , Walkers and Dragoons that look like old Colts but use modern steel , and are properly fitted out of the box.

If they cost $1500-2000 they'd still sell every one they could make.

Even an 1862 Pocket Police NYPD Tribute revolver made from scratch would sell like crazy.

There's a big opening in the market for someone to step into.

Lol!! I've already shown you how to do that, with what's available . . . for cheaper!!!

 

[Stantheman86]

Lol!! I've already shown you how to do that, with what's available . . . for cheaper!!!

Yes, yes, we know, we know...... you make a living at it and you'll make all of our guns perfect if we give you our $$ . Of course the guy who makes his mortgage and boat payments off "fixing" guns has to tell
us how much they need fixing

You only tell us 20 times per day how could we not know .

Before I even hit "uncover ignored content " I already knew exactly what was going to be uncovered but I couldn't help myself all like oh look 45D is starting early today , must be taking a break from perfecting all those inferior Italian guns

 

[Boomtown Bang]

There are always going to be tiers of quality. Anyone who happens to not know the Monday/Friday rule for quality is going to go for the cheapest. In other words you are asking to be a victim of poor quality. Anyone who believes that they are made the same is asking to be a suckered out of hard earned money. If someone is naive enough to believe that quality does not differ has never owned anything. I believe Uberti is inferior to Pietta. NEVER has one of my Piettas needed to be tuned but EVERY Uberti has. A quality product should not need to have anything done to it but its just the way it is

My pietta 1860 army .44 worked PERFECT right outta the box. I never expected such a high quality firearm from italy for $240ish to be perfect yet it is. I keep ot loaded 24/7 and it if very consistently even after sitting 2 months with caps and all. Hardly clean it (use 777). It's a great firearm imo.

 

[Boomtown Bang]

My pietta 1860 army .44 worked PERFECT right outta the box. I never expected such a high quality firearm from italy for $240ish to be perfect yet it is. I keep ot loaded 24/7 and it if very consistently even after sitting 2 months with caps and all. Hardly clean it (use 777). It's a great firearm imo.