TC 1/48 barrel twist on Hawken?

[JelloStorm]

I read the following article last night when I was researching what barrel twist the TC Hawken has:
http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/18_6/features/firearms_muzzleloading-hunting-rifles5339-1.html

The note that the 1/48 is a bit too much for patched round ball and not enough for modern sabots. I'd want to stick with PRBs anyway, so should I just look for a different gun or replacement barrel for Hawken? I don't want to lose any accuracy.

I wouldn't mind playing with sabots, but for hunting I would want to be as accurate as possible with PRBs.

 

[roundball]

The note that the 1/48 is a bit too much for patched round ball and not enough for modern sabots.
I'd want to stick with PRBs anyway, so should I just look for a different gun or replacement barrel for Hawken? I don't want to lose any accuracy.

Unfortunately, that's just arm chair theory that somebody read somewhere else and is repeating it to try and sound knowledgable and thump his chest...you can ignore it completely, as you should all arm chair theory from "writers".

1:48" twists will give you single ragged hole accuracy at 50 yards no problem at all...been there/done that...my TCs (.45/.50/.54) average 100 yard group sizes in the 1+7/8" to 2+3/4" range off the bench, using full power deer hunting loads...and I'm no special talented shooter, just a hunter.

Its worth mentioning that the original Hawkens back in the day were made with 1:48" twists and helped settle our whole country just fine;

T/C's 1:48" barrels have been taking game with PRBs since they came out back in the '70's;
Along with hundreds of thousands of others (millions?) I've personally shot and hunted with 1:48" twist barrels for years now in .40/.45/.50/.54cals.

Unless you're some rare exceptional marksman capable of competing at the national level measuring differences in group size with a dial caliper, you'll never see differences at a target from twists because of all the other minor variances in measuring powder charges, variations in seating pressure, variations in bore conditions from shot to shot, etc.....
:wink:

 

[BrownBear]

Here's an interesting tidbit for you:

Original Hawkens are 1:48. So are a lot of other original rifles.

 

[JelloStorm]

Awesome! That was just the answer I've been looking for. I love how knowledgeable and helpful everyone is on this forum, unlike some others that I frequent for my bolt guns and semi autos.

Now, the only other thing about their post is they listed the TC Hawken at $500 price range.... WHERE OH WHERE can I get a TC HAWKEN for that price!!??

 

[whitedog333]

My old original LEMAN rifle whose barrel is 47 1/4" long has a 1 in 48" twist. It does quite fine work with PRB's and 40 grains of fffg. It's good that you brought the question up here instead of simply accepting an opinion being passed off as "expert advice".

 

[BrownBear]

You can actually get them for less than that on the used market. That's part of what has been killing TC sales. They've priced their new guns waaaaay beyond market value. Most I've ever paid for a Hawken was right at $400 if I recall, and that's because it came with two barrels. Keep checking the Classified Ad section here and elsewhere, cuzz they come around pretty frequently.

 

[JelloStorm]

I have been checking around, however most are percussion and here in PA we can only use Flintlock for hunting.

Maybe when Tax time rolls around I'll spoil myself on a new one, or if I find a real good used one... then I'll be able to get a .45 cal or .50 cal TVM Late Lancaster :bow:

A guy can dream, can't he?? :grin:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

That test was dated 2006. Everything except wages has gone up over the past four years but T/C prices have gone up so much it almost seems like T/C is deliberately trying to price itself out of the market.
Midsouth Shooters Supply, which generally has pretty good prices, lists them like this:
Lyman GPR, percussion $455.51 or flint $498.25
T/C Hawken percussion $763.09 flint $798.52
That shows the T/C at 60-67% more than the GPR, I should think that would be the deciding factor for most folks. I was shocked when I saw the T/C price was nearly $600, now it's $800! That's about 80% of the cost of a TVM custom rifle. And used T/C's are still going for $250-$300. :haha:

 

[JelloStorm]

Yeah the best price I found was at TJ General Store
http://www.tjgeneralstore.com/thompson.htm

$720 for the flinter. Don't know what shipping will be.

I found this one for $300 cash, but I'm no expert on Hawkens and am not sure the barrel condition:
http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2035562#Post2035562

 

[ebiggs1]

Bryan,
The price difference is a little obscure. The Lyman's lock is not up to the TC's but it works. If you elevate it to the TC level, the cost is more narrow. I have both and I love both. The bigger difference in the two, for me, is the Lyman is available with a 15/16th barrel in 54 cal. Bottom line, however, the TC is the better gun, so you decide.

Oh. BTW, that rifle you linked looks very old and it looks like a kit gun to me.
Oh, and BTW2, never use those fake flints!

 

[Dphar]

I read the following article last night when I was researching what barrel twist the TC Hawken has:
http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/18_6/features/firearms_muzzleloading-hunting-rifles5339-1.html

The note that the 1/48 is a bit too much for patched round ball and not enough for modern sabots. I'd want to stick with PRBs anyway, so should I just look for a different gun or replacement barrel for Hawken? I don't want to lose any accuracy.

I wouldn't mind playing with sabots, but for hunting I would want to be as accurate as possible with PRBs.

This myth is the result of TC making shallow groove 1:48" barrels for their bullets, deep grooves don't work as well with bullets. These shallow groove barrels would not work well with PRB.
However, with grooves over .008-.010" deep the 48 twist is actually a very good twist and was STANDARD IN ORIGINAL HAWKEN RIFLES regardless of caliber. These rifles were well regarded for their accuracy.

If you have a shallow groove, maybe .005 deep, TC barrel you will need a very tight patch/ball fit to shoot a RB with a charge of 75-100 grains of powder.
If you have a deep groove 48" twist barrel with patched ball rifling there will be no issue with any charge of powder you would choose to shoot.
I have had 3 barrels in 50 caliber with a 1:48 twist over the years and ALL were very to extremely accurate with the PRB. In fact I would prefer this twist over the 70" that is standard with the GM 50 calibers.
The short answer is its the rifling GROOVE DEPTH that will make the 48" twist a difficult proposition for PRBs its NOT the twist which is near perfect for calibers to at least 54-58.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is nothing wrong with shooting PRBs out of a 1:48 ROT barrel, be it made by T/C or others. They shoot just as accurately.

What is different between the 1:48 ROT, and say, a 1:60 ROT is that the slower ROT is more foregiving when loading powder by volume and you throw a bit more or less powder. The 1:48 ROT barrel can be a bit more fussy about what powder charge it likes, so you need to pay attention to how you measure your powder charges.

I have been shooting a .50 cal. 1:48 ROT barrel since 1980, and have done all kinds of Trick shooting demonstrations with it.( See my article on off-hand and trick shooting up under member resources, on the index page to this forum, where it lists "Articles, Charts and Links".)

There is NOTHING wrong with the accuracy, Provided I pay attention to how I load my powder charge in my powder measure.

Some old wives tales are better off left for dead. :thumbsup:

Oh,you can also shoot RBs accurately out of even faster twist barrels, but the size of the ball used, and the patch thickness needed may vary from what you use in your T/C, based on the bore diameter( always a factor) and the groove depth in the faster ROT barrels. The tighter the ball and patch combination in a fast twist barrel, the better the accuracy. This may require using a bore diameter( .500") cast RB in these guns. Some people fear that the ball will "strip" if sent too fast down a shallow rifling barrel. They recommend, or insist, that you have to Reduce your powder charge, and velocity in these barrels.

I have never experienced that unless the ball/patch combination was too small for the ball and groove depth. But, then, I also find evidence of gas cutting the spent patches when this is the case. :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

[longcruise]

Maybe they are having to factor in more and more to handle warrantys. They must spend a lot of dough on warranty given how generous they are.

 

[JelloStorm]

I'm sure being that they are US-made also increases the price a bit too since Lymans and others are imported.

I've always wanted a T/C Hawken, but I settled for a Lyman Deerstalker because it was all I could afford.

Hopefully 2011 will get me a T/C Hawken .50 flinter though!

 

[MSW]

Brian, Swampy 'got it in one.' If you take the time to learn to shoot the rifle properly (and, yes, it is harder to shoot a flintlock than a Model 70) you will find the accuracy of a T/C Renegade comparable to that of most out-of-the-box centerfire rifles. (That's why i don't have a Model 70 any more; if i need two an a half inch groups at 300 meters, i'll break out the Steyer SSG.)

Sorry to sound high handed, but that's the God's honest truth- the T/C will do you just fine in the accuracy department: mine shoots better than its owner right now, 'cause my eyesight isn't what it might be, and my range time is very limited.

So, ignore the self appointed experts, take the rifle to the range, work up a load, and

make good smoke!

p.s. if you don't already have a copy, you should check out Dutch Schoultz' monograph - it's money very well spent.

 

[JelloStorm]

Now, I'm going to ask this question and I want everyone who is familiar with T/C Hawken to be be honest, but...

Right now Cabela's has their Hawken rifles for $399.00 and I got a $20 off coupon and $23 in Cabela's credit, so I can score one for around $360 shipped.

It's not a Thompson Center, which is what I want, however is this such a lesser substitute?

I might just be letting the Hawken itch get to me so bad that I'm willing to settle for less, so if anyone wants to talk me out of it... Oh and by the way everyone....

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

We in my house pronounce it "Merry Christmas", not "happy holidays". :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Unless something has changed drastically in the past few days, I believe that Cabelas have guns made by the same firm that makes the Lyman GPR. They simply put Cabela's name on it, and there are a few cosmetic differences. The barrels appear to be the same, and are equally accurate. I can't speak for the quality of the locks on the gun, but Cabelas stands by the products. Basically, you are buying a Lyman Great Plains rifle, with a different name on it. Its not a T/C.

 

[J.G. Terry]

I have accumulated a number of T/C's. Have shot many matches with stock .50 and.54 cal T/C of one flavor or another (Hawken, Renegade, and New Englander). These rifles work very well with PRB's. I do find them hard to load with with accurate combination of patch and ball. Overall, the rifles have worked very well. Locally, it's not unusual to see T/C's go for less than $150.00 in decent shape.

 

[Trot]

The only fault I have with the Cabelas Hawken is the rear sight,it is kind of wobbly. I have one in 50 caliber and it is an excellent shooter with roundballs. It is made by the same company that makes the Lyman rifles so quality is similar.

 

[roundball]

"...the T/C will do you just fine in the accuracy department..."

"...ignore the self appointed experts, take the rifle to the range, work up a load, and make good smoke!..."

Amen !!