TC Firestorm Flintlocks
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Russ T Frizzen
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That's a myth. Real powder isn't hard to get. It can be delivered right to your door in most places. The fake powders are for those with no real commitment to tradition or to the historical aspects of muzzleloading. They would just as soon have a plastic stocked, stainless steel wondergun and pretend it's traditional. They'd use moose whizz as a propellant if they could find a way to light it off. It gets tiresome hearing over and over again about the difficulties in obtaining real powder. When I look at the people around my area saying this, invariably they have a make-believe "traditional" gun and haven't even tried to get real powder. And they really think their black plastic stocked gun should be period correct for the F&I War. Why not just buy an in-line and be done with it? That's what the marketing people want you to do and many shooters would be much happier with them anyway. They even have forums especially for zipgun shooters who at least have had the integrity to admit that they really have no interest in traditional muzzleloaders. And they get all hot and tingly talking about Pyrodex and 777 and junk of that sort. And they continue to happily spread the manure about black powder being hard to get....
With all due respect, I can't believe anyone could be so wrong in your summation. I have yet to even talk with a live person that shoots a flintlock. There are no stores here that carry real black powder. I just oredered $360 dollars worth of real black powder because of that fact, not a myth! Now that may not be a lot of money to you but it is to me. Every gun store in town has BP subs for $20 bucks. It does have a "plastic" stock but it has the exact same lock as a TC Hawken. I shoot real black powder in it and it works fine. And if it comes down to using "moose whizz" so I can shoot, I will do that too. I don't pretend it's traditional. I don't pretend it's anything except what it is. If that makes me a zipgun shooter, so be it.
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That may be the case. I don't know. I have a home in PA and there are two ML seasons. Only one of the two is Flintlock only.
About BP being easy to get....that depends. Yes I can and do order it. I order a number of pounds at a time because I shoot it exclusively. I also know that not everyone can afford to buy 10-15-20-25 pounds at a time. They can go down to the local and buy a pound of a sub or a box of pellets and they are good for the season. They may want a rifle that can be used with the subs during the flint only season. (of course, if they have the $ to buy the gun then....then maybe they can't do both.)
I don't begrudge the guy who owns and shoots one, even if I am not interested.
Pete
Russ T Frizzen
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ebiggs said:
Track of the Wolf sells GOEX BP for less than $14.50 a pound. Other dealers will also deliver to your door and in less than 25 pound lots. Perhaps you should have done some research before you bought your powder. The fake crap is more expensive than the real powder and harder to clean up after, particularly if it sits for a while after being fired.
Good luck with the moose whizz--be sure to let us know how that works out for you. The fact that you aren't talking with live people who shoot flintlocks is interesting--astonishing even. That can only mean that you are speaking to dead people who are shooting flintlocks, something I would have thought most unlikely. Should you be be chatting with a rifleman from the early 1700s, would you ask him what his rifle looks like? Those among us who do appreciate tradition and history and think that plastic is more appropriately used on children's toys and public toilet seats would really love to know. Or perhaps you meant to say that as yet you haven't been able to speak to a flintlock shooter in person and that you do not in fact possess the ability to speak to the deceased? Since your T/C Firestorm isn't a traditional flintlock by any means and works somewhat differently, you probably should seek out a fellow Firestorm owner(catchy name, that--sounds like it belongs on a Chevy muscle car from the 1970s). Be careful collecting that moose whizz, Biggs, as the moose may prove uncooperative, and that might put you in permanent contact with dead people! But it would be a most appropriate propellant for your gun, all things considered. :rotf:
Well that's $14.50 a pound plus $17.00 HAZMAT plus regular shipping and you're looking at $35.00+ for a single pound. It really is not cost effective to buy less than 5 pounds at a time.
I don't use the subs myself, I buy black in 25 pound lots, but I do understand that not everyone is into shooting as much as I do. I have friends who may shoot 15-20 rounds at a rendezvous, a few to sight-in and hunt and a pound of powder will last them several years. People are also nervous about storing large amounts of blackpowder in their homes. So there is a reason for the subs and at least in percussion guns I've found Pyrodex to work very well.
I don't use the subs myself, I buy black in 25 pound lots, but I do understand that not everyone is into shooting as much as I do. I have friends who may shoot 15-20 rounds at a rendezvous, a few to sight-in and hunt and a pound of powder will last them several years. People are also nervous about storing large amounts of blackpowder in their homes. So there is a reason for the subs and at least in percussion guns I've found Pyrodex to work very well.
"will last them several years. People are also nervous about storing large amounts of blackpowder in their homes."
I have never understood that, I am more concerned as to whether I have left any varnish/oil soaked rags laying around the shop or work room than having any problems with BP, get into a clubsor buddy up and you can usually buy a few cans at a time
at a time
I have never understood that, I am more concerned as to whether I have left any varnish/oil soaked rags laying around the shop or work room than having any problems with BP, get into a clubsor buddy up and you can usually buy a few cans at a time
at a time
hockeyref
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That one or two pounds will last some guys much longer.... they shoot a couple shots a year just to verify minute of deer so that they can extend their season a couple more weeks. They don't give a rat's rump about tradition, PC or anything else except will it go bang and kill a deer. Many of these are the same guys that jumped on the crossbows or to some extent the compounds... You either have a passion for the primative weapons (be they stick bows or smoke poles) or you don't. If you do then you want to find a way to get the real stuff and pay attention to details... If not, well then....
Let's put it in a different light... the sale of real BP has just been outlawed or it's severely restricted and now you need a licence, written permision from the state and local police as well as the state fire marshall. You now have a specific codified requirement for magazine storage that requires you to own at least an half acre of ground to build the powder magazine to code. Oh, and real BP now costs $100 a pound once you pay all of the fees and special shipping costs.... NO over the counter sales so you gotta pay the extra costs...
But that nasty 'ol substitute is still only $20 a pound and available everywhere over the counter. Do you put that cherished custom made flinter on the wall? Rebarrell with technology that might allow you to use the substitute? Risk the repurcussions and make yourself a batch of the real stuff?
What do ya do?
Let's put it in a different light... the sale of real BP has just been outlawed or it's severely restricted and now you need a licence, written permision from the state and local police as well as the state fire marshall. You now have a specific codified requirement for magazine storage that requires you to own at least an half acre of ground to build the powder magazine to code. Oh, and real BP now costs $100 a pound once you pay all of the fees and special shipping costs.... NO over the counter sales so you gotta pay the extra costs...
But that nasty 'ol substitute is still only $20 a pound and available everywhere over the counter. Do you put that cherished custom made flinter on the wall? Rebarrell with technology that might allow you to use the substitute? Risk the repurcussions and make yourself a batch of the real stuff?
What do ya do?
Hockeyref
Just to keep anyone from mis-reading your post,
unless there is some specific state or local law in a town people do not have to get a license, they do not need written permission from the local police or fire Marshall nor do they need a special storage area or a powder magazine to buy or store black powder.
If they want to be a dealer who sells black powder, the things you mention are the law they must comply with.
It may someday come to pass that some of these things happen but for right now the average citizen can buy, own and store real black powder.
Just to keep anyone from mis-reading your post,
unless there is some specific state or local law in a town people do not have to get a license, they do not need written permission from the local police or fire Marshall nor do they need a special storage area or a powder magazine to buy or store black powder.
If they want to be a dealer who sells black powder, the things you mention are the law they must comply with.
It may someday come to pass that some of these things happen but for right now the average citizen can buy, own and store real black powder.
hockeyref
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tg said:
Sorry Zonie.... Didn't mean to maybe confuse some folks. I was definitely doing a bit of a what if... (if you hadn't noticed, I do tend to stir stuff up to get guys thinking and discussin... :grin: ) I was trying to come up with a scenerio to put the hard core died in the wool BP guys into a situation akin to the joe average trigger puller having to order a single pound of BP at a cost well beyond what was reasonable.
TG
Step outa your "experienced BP guy" shoes and into the shoes of Joe deerslayer... If you're making the commitment to bulid a rock lock you've probably done the research and accept the supply issues that come with BP. Joe deerslayer wants a gun that's legal for his states flinter season to get more time afield. His requirements and expectations are rooted in modern rifles right down to the sights and weatherproofness.
I USED to have a local shop just a mile or two away that sold BP, and everything else to build a smoke pole from the hunk of wood with the outline of a stock hand drawn on it to whatever was needed to make it go boom... THAT IS MY PERSONAL DEFINITION OF EASY TO GET, a true one stop shop for all things BP! They're gone about 15 years now and AFIK, I have to either drive most of the way across PA or mail order to get close to the same selection. I'm willing to do that but I had to wait until I had enough $$$ to make the order worth it to me. I also plan to just go out and shoot for the fun of it so buying 5 pounds was an acceptable minimum since I couldn't afford my preferred 25# at the time I ordered.
For those that shoot SEVERAL POUNDS of BP a year the minor issues to order BP are no big deal at all - after all, a $20 Hazmat fee on 25# of powder doesn't even add a dollar a pound. But, there are MANY MANY MANY folks now who may as well have that much trouble (in my exagerated example) getting real BP... To them what is called easily available - by many here on the board - isn't. To many folks, If they can't go down to the local big box store or maybe even a local gun shop to buy the ONE POUND they want at A REASONABLE PRICE then it is not available. There are a hell of a lot more folks out there that do not want or need more than a pound than those that see no issue buying 25# at a time. I suspect that most see it as assenine to pay more for shipping and hazmat than for the product itself or to buy more powder than they'll ever use. These folks have no desire to buckskin, re-enact, be PC (Be it "period" or "politically" correct), or go to a BP club or event (let alone join in). All they want is a gun that goes bang so they can get that extra two or three weekends chasing bambi and his mom...
To them the pellets are great... no measuring or horns\flasks needed, just toss one or two down the tube.... don't need patches and balls when they have sabots and pistol bullets.... Stainless barrel is great.... don't gotta clean religiously cuz it don't rust (yeah I know better but that's part of the mindset)... Synthetic stock - good deal - we all know deer season in PA is the rainy season.. AND, it's leagl for PA's FLINTLOCK SEASON 'cuz it's got a rock in the hammer...
Yes, definitely tongue in cheek... the thing is, we tend to think from our own point of view and not from any other... We love to go afield with a stick and string or a smoke pole that is a close replica to those used 100+ years ago. Others think we are stupid for not using every advantage modern technology can provide. The pellet\replica powders and the "modern muzzle loaders" - be it a firestorm or an inline - were designed for this market.
Truth be told, I might want a lefty in .45 as a first rock lock for my daughter just 'cuz I wouldn't care how much abuse was heaped upon it and I can easily buy powder and bullets for her vs my .54 GPR rock lock. As in I have Five places within 10 miles where I can buy pellets and powerbelts! That said, I'll probably build something for her after I complete my next one.
paulvallandigham
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You don't have to join a club to find a bunch of like minded hunters, who are all in the same fix for powder. 5 shooters, each ordering 5 lbs, makes a full, 25# case of powder, and all benefit from the lower cost per pound, and the single Haz Mat fee charged. Each can afford the 5 lbs of powder he orders, as the unit cost is so much less.
If you insist on being a Lone Wolf, then, yes, its going to cost you a lot more. But, even ordering 4 or 5 lbs and having it shipped to your home is not going to cost you nearly as much as most of the substitute powders now cost at retail. Yes, putting together the money to buy a whole Case of powder all by yourself definitely pinches the lunch money budget. That is why its important to come OUT OF THE CLOSET, meet other BP hunters, who have the same concerns, and then work together to solve it for the good of all of you.
My gun club for years has made an annual purchase of Black Powder for members. We used to drive over to Indiana to buy it from a distributor there, but he retired. The first time I was involved in getting the powder, we were able to sell it to members at $3.10 per pound( can)! Obviously, that has been a few years ago. But, you could not find the powder even then for less than $4.00 retail, and it still cost more buying it at the NMLRA during Spring and Fall shoots, than what we charged members. So, it was definitely a better deal. We made enough extra not to make the club treasury rich, but to pay for the gas used for the round trip. Neither of us were paid a dime for our work. I enjoyed the trip, and seeing the log house the man lived in that he had built. His name was Daniel Boone V, and he really was a direct descendant of THAT Daniel Boone.
If you insist on being a Lone Wolf, then, yes, its going to cost you a lot more. But, even ordering 4 or 5 lbs and having it shipped to your home is not going to cost you nearly as much as most of the substitute powders now cost at retail. Yes, putting together the money to buy a whole Case of powder all by yourself definitely pinches the lunch money budget. That is why its important to come OUT OF THE CLOSET, meet other BP hunters, who have the same concerns, and then work together to solve it for the good of all of you.
My gun club for years has made an annual purchase of Black Powder for members. We used to drive over to Indiana to buy it from a distributor there, but he retired. The first time I was involved in getting the powder, we were able to sell it to members at $3.10 per pound( can)! Obviously, that has been a few years ago. But, you could not find the powder even then for less than $4.00 retail, and it still cost more buying it at the NMLRA during Spring and Fall shoots, than what we charged members. So, it was definitely a better deal. We made enough extra not to make the club treasury rich, but to pay for the gas used for the round trip. Neither of us were paid a dime for our work. I enjoyed the trip, and seeing the log house the man lived in that he had built. His name was Daniel Boone V, and he really was a direct descendant of THAT Daniel Boone.
tg said:
I have never understood the fear of storing powder in the home, either. How many people have a half gallon of gasoline or other flammable liquids, that present a far greater hazard than black powder, in their homes?
An acquaintance buries his excess powder in the back yard, inside a 5 gallon plastic bucket with a sealable lid. A coupla others made fire resistant boxes for powder storage. Another uses 50 cal ammo cans, lined with heavy cardboard, so there are a LOT of good, safe ways to store powder.
God bless
I believe I've said this elsewhere.
I'm one of those poor souls living in NJ, where no one, AFAIK, sells bp. To get a pound of powder I have to travel into PA(Dixon's is closest to me, about 1 hour 45 minutes drive). I've asked a few times at the club I intend to join(GSBPA) as soon as I can afford the dues how they get their powder, but so far haven't gotten any answers. Maybe, when I'm fully paid up, they'll reveal the secret to me.
I have close to 2 lbs of Goex fffg now, so I'm not hurting for powder yet. If I had more opportunities to shoot that situation could change.
I'm one of those poor souls living in NJ, where no one, AFAIK, sells bp. To get a pound of powder I have to travel into PA(Dixon's is closest to me, about 1 hour 45 minutes drive). I've asked a few times at the club I intend to join(GSBPA) as soon as I can afford the dues how they get their powder, but so far haven't gotten any answers. Maybe, when I'm fully paid up, they'll reveal the secret to me.
I have close to 2 lbs of Goex fffg now, so I'm not hurting for powder yet. If I had more opportunities to shoot that situation could change.
Flintlock58 said:
Yes, for hunting, targets and informal plinking. And yes I do like it.
Carl Davis said:
Actually, it is a tool. Even a chrome plated hammer with a fiberglass handle still effectively drives a nail; it just looks different doing it. But then in certain venues, looks are everything.
This discussion has morphed into the insinuation that availability of black powder is no excuse for shooting such a dastardly perversion of a flintlock rifle. I think that is a little too much buy in to the marketing hype and the unique patented shape of the breech plug face. Yes the gun may be able to shoot powders other than black but in reality, my experience has been that Goex FFg gives the most reliable and consistent performance of anything that I have tried. There are a large number of powders that I have not tried but have shot almost everything mentioned here.
I shoot real Blacjk powder in mine most of the time and I can't tell the difference between it and my cap lock TC in firing speed. It is very fast. In fact I have let some folks shoot it that have never shot flintlocks before and invaribily the first comment is, "Wow!", "I thought flintlocks were slow."
Now when you use a sub, the speed is drastly reduced and a noticeable lag is present.
Now when you use a sub, the speed is drastly reduced and a noticeable lag is present.
I do not believe it is legal to 'resell' BP without the appropriate licenses ”“ basing this on the forms that I have had to sign that state I am not buying it for resale when ordering BP. Assume you would not make the admission that your club sells BP to members unless completely legal. Have chipped in for a group buy and then split up the purchase when it arrived and have assumed this to be legal. I am sure someone will advise if this interpretation is incorrect.
Back to the Firestorm. Have had one for a couple years and it performs well. Got it for busting through the bush without concerns of damaging any finish (not sure how you could damage it and make it any uglier), saving the finely finished guns for stand hunting. Have not tried pellets. With subs, have used a kicker of 5 to 10 grains of 2F BP but sense a slight delay in ignition. Seems to work best with Swiss, round ball and/or conical - have not tried Goex, but should work well. Do not care for the TC false muzzle when loading round balls. While not having the mythical qualities of the round ball, Powerbelt over 100 grains of Swiss is my current favorite hunting load in this particular gun. Tried some I was given and found that they would group between 2 and 3 inches at 100 yards (swabbing between shots with wet/dry patches) and are currently five for five with no complaints from any deer.
Back to the Firestorm. Have had one for a couple years and it performs well. Got it for busting through the bush without concerns of damaging any finish (not sure how you could damage it and make it any uglier), saving the finely finished guns for stand hunting. Have not tried pellets. With subs, have used a kicker of 5 to 10 grains of 2F BP but sense a slight delay in ignition. Seems to work best with Swiss, round ball and/or conical - have not tried Goex, but should work well. Do not care for the TC false muzzle when loading round balls. While not having the mythical qualities of the round ball, Powerbelt over 100 grains of Swiss is my current favorite hunting load in this particular gun. Tried some I was given and found that they would group between 2 and 3 inches at 100 yards (swabbing between shots with wet/dry patches) and are currently five for five with no complaints from any deer.
As for clubs "selling" black powder, they cannot unless they are licensed by the Gov.
We've discussed this several times before and it boils down to this:
If a group of people, whether they belong to a club or not, get together and decide that they each want to buy X pounds of black powder, one person can serve as an agent for the several people and he/she sends in the order and using his/her address as the shipping point.
When the powder arrives, each person who ordered the powder can pick up his powder from the person who was acting as the agent.
It is best if everyone participating in this pays up front before the order is placed because without money changing hands at the time of delivery it is fairly obvious that this is not a "sale".
It also keeps anyone from changing his/her mind and refusing to pay their share.
Notice that this is different from a clubs officers just buying a bunch of powder with the intention of selling it to whoever comes up with the cash.
Buying powder with the intention of selling it later puts the club (or individual) in the position of a Dealer and Dealers must not only be licensed but must have the proper storage area, etc. etc.
As for the Firestorm, speaking for myself it has no attraction.
It can and does serve as a tool with a somewhat traditional Flintlock ignition that is useful in familiarizing new shooters with flintlocks.
Hopefully they will enjoy their gun and desire to expand their collection to include the more faithful recreations that are available.
We've discussed this several times before and it boils down to this:
If a group of people, whether they belong to a club or not, get together and decide that they each want to buy X pounds of black powder, one person can serve as an agent for the several people and he/she sends in the order and using his/her address as the shipping point.
When the powder arrives, each person who ordered the powder can pick up his powder from the person who was acting as the agent.
It is best if everyone participating in this pays up front before the order is placed because without money changing hands at the time of delivery it is fairly obvious that this is not a "sale".
It also keeps anyone from changing his/her mind and refusing to pay their share.
Notice that this is different from a clubs officers just buying a bunch of powder with the intention of selling it to whoever comes up with the cash.
Buying powder with the intention of selling it later puts the club (or individual) in the position of a Dealer and Dealers must not only be licensed but must have the proper storage area, etc. etc.
As for the Firestorm, speaking for myself it has no attraction.
It can and does serve as a tool with a somewhat traditional Flintlock ignition that is useful in familiarizing new shooters with flintlocks.
Hopefully they will enjoy their gun and desire to expand their collection to include the more faithful recreations that are available.
paulvallandigham
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My club was doing this long before the current laws were written. It does not sell BP to anyone NOW. We take orders and deposits for powder, and when we have enough to order a case, or two, the order is placed. The powder is distributed ONLY to those members who have ordered powder and paid a deposit. The Deposit is often based on the last price paid, plus 10%. If the deposit is not sufficient, the difference is paid on delivery. If its too much, its a choice of the member whether to receive a refund, or simply leave the money in the Club Treasury with a credit in our accounts for the next time he orders powder. In most cases, refunds are paid.
No, don't sell powder to anyone unless you have a current license from both the ATFE, and your own state to do so. The guy you sell the powder to will probably be working to set you up for a bust, no matter how long you have known him. I had a client years ago who was arrested, indicted, and prosecuted for Possessing Explosive Devices, because he foolishly made 50 large fire crackers for a life long friend. His friend had been arrested on drug charges, and offered to work for federal authorities to reduce his sentence. He turned on everyone he ever smoked a joint with, or sold him a $5.00 bag of marijuana. When he exhausted all of them, he got around to my client, who he knew had been making firecrackers that were larger than M-80s, and lighting them off out on the farm for years. ( What else do rural kids have to do to have fun living out in the middle of Nowhere??? They certainly never intended that anyone be harmed, nor for the "firecrackers" to be used for anything other than making a big NOISE !)
He was convicted of a felony crime, and has lost his right to possess firearms, to hunt, other than with bow and arrow, or to enjoy any other recreation with firearms. Even the Federal Judge was unhappy with the U.S. District Attorney for prosecuting him as a felon. But, it happened.
Don't let it happen to you.
There. Free Legal Advice. How about that! :blah: :rotf: :surrender: :hatsoff:
No, don't sell powder to anyone unless you have a current license from both the ATFE, and your own state to do so. The guy you sell the powder to will probably be working to set you up for a bust, no matter how long you have known him. I had a client years ago who was arrested, indicted, and prosecuted for Possessing Explosive Devices, because he foolishly made 50 large fire crackers for a life long friend. His friend had been arrested on drug charges, and offered to work for federal authorities to reduce his sentence. He turned on everyone he ever smoked a joint with, or sold him a $5.00 bag of marijuana. When he exhausted all of them, he got around to my client, who he knew had been making firecrackers that were larger than M-80s, and lighting them off out on the farm for years. ( What else do rural kids have to do to have fun living out in the middle of Nowhere??? They certainly never intended that anyone be harmed, nor for the "firecrackers" to be used for anything other than making a big NOISE !)
He was convicted of a felony crime, and has lost his right to possess firearms, to hunt, other than with bow and arrow, or to enjoy any other recreation with firearms. Even the Federal Judge was unhappy with the U.S. District Attorney for prosecuting him as a felon. But, it happened.
Don't let it happen to you.
There. Free Legal Advice. How about that! :blah: :rotf: :surrender: :hatsoff:
