TC renegade load problems

[jackpine54]

I agree, looks like lead. The easiest way I've found to remove lead is copper chore boy pad. I usually cut a small amount off the pad and wrap it around an appropriate size bronze/brass brush. Just scrub it until you don't see or feel the lead deposits any more. You should be able to feel it smooth out as it cleans up.
Never had that happen on a ml, but I did have a 45/70 that needed that treatment several times during load development!

 

[nkbj]

Hey Jimbrynn.
The photos look like there's some corrosion and some lead build up.
What follows is opinion and might not be right but it's what I'm thinking.

To continue using the barrel, it is going to take thorough and aggressive cleaning to get it back to clean steel. Once it's clean though the uneven rifling surfaces (where a little corrosion has begun) are going to take you back to the same problem if you go back doing the same thing. To keep the leading from becoming a big problem you could try a gas dam behind the bullets. Card wads punched out of milk or juice cartons might work. Or, one of my go-to cures for gas cutting is card wads punched out of pressed paper egg cartons and the wads soaked in melted lube. You can stack them to create thickness and it's kinda like the stem packing of a high pressure valve. So, that's an option; preventing the gas cutting. That might let you jack the velocities back up without recurring leading problems.

Something you will be faced with is needing lots of high quality lube. You might try some "SPG" or else brew up some lube yourself using beeswax, peanut or olive or other type of oil, and lanolin. I'm a big believer in lanolin but that's just because I'm a belt and suspenders kinda guy. Shortening might end up working great with your loading and who knows what else. Whatever lube you use, it will probably need to be soft enough to flow well when the powder goes off and to sling off the bullet when exiting the bore. Where ever you are, temperatures can have an effect on that so it's just a little something to keep in the back of your mind.

 

[rusticbob]

Try another projectile. Check out Idaholewis on youtube. He has a video speculating that not all the lube being used in the barrel, and it is still attached to the Maxi-ball inconsistently, throwing the shot off course. Sounds good to me. Try the Hornady Plains bullet.

 

[Don H]

QLA, basically there is no rifling in the muzzle end of the barrel to allow the projectile to be started easily.

 

[Grenadier1758]

All I am using is Thompson center bore cleaner....should I try a more aggressive cleaner Like I would use in my rifles to remove lead and copper fouling?

Yes, use a cleaner to remove lead build up. It doesn't take much to start getting lead build up so your seldom shot barrel can have lead in the grooves.

 

[Eric Krewson]

That is a rough looking bore, I wouldn't even think of cleaning a TC barrel with the barrel still in the stock, especially if you shoot pydrodex which is super corrosive.

This .50 TC hates maxi bullets but loves patched round balls. My shoulder hates maxies as well and really likes patch round balls.

Here is a clean TC .50 after dunking the end of the barrel in a bucket of warm water and giving it a good scrubbing. This camera shoots in sepia tones, there is nothing red in the barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Eric Krewson, you sure do a fine job of cleaning your rifles.

 

[Carbon 6]

the gun does have the QLA system.

I believe the QLA system was designed for unmentionable plastic projectiles. they tend to have very shallow rifling.

 

[Carbon 6]

When accuracy goes away shooting greasesd lead bullets, look for leading first. Wrap #4 steel wool around a tight patch and run it through the bore. If the bore is leaded you will see it on the steel wool. Will not hurt the barrel.

I don't know what a QLA system is and I didn't know they still made Pyrodex.

I prefer to use a copper choreboy scrubber over steel wool.

 

[Flyingw56]

I have attached a photo of what your barrel should look like, you have a lead buildup problem, this will affect your accuracy. There is a product I use called Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner its only 6 bucks to your door it wraps around your cleaning brush and will remove any rust or lead. Hope this helps.

 

[MSW]

my two cents worth:

you have lots of funk in our bore, which you need to clean out as soon as is practical. I would recommend JB Bore Paste (or whatever they're calling it this year) - here's a link:
https://www.brownells.com/gun-clean...z-j-b-bore-bright-sku083065100-1161-4124.aspx
once the bore is clean, i agree that going to a PRB (Patched Round Ball) may well give you much better result. To further this, you should get a copy of Dutch Schoultz' method - here's a link:
http://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/this is, to my mind, the best non shooting accessory you can buy.

As regards Pyrodex, i haven't used the stuff in many years, not because i have anything against it, but because i shoot flint and subs don't work with that system. Real black is cheaper anyway, so if you can get it, by all means do so.

The accuracy you describe sound more like a pattern than a group. With something this extreem, i would recommend that you carefully disassemble the rifle and see if there is something out of whack _ a bit of crud jammed into the barrel channel or something rubbing on the lock, or one of the barrel lugs loose or something like that.

If you keep at it, you will eventually come up with a pretty accurate rifle.

If, unfortunately, the bore is irreparable, and you have a Renegade (one inch across the flats) you can get Bobby Hoyt to bore it out to a .54 or a .58... this will probably cost less than a new barrel if you count the breech plug, the snail, the lugs and all the attendant fallderall ... I don't have Mr. Hoyt's contact info, but if you PM me i'll dig it out for you.

Best of luck, and

Make Good Smoke!

 

[Irishmusket]

Pyrodex dose in fact foul almost as bad as the real stuff ignition is not as consistent as black powder and will rust your barrel as fast if not faster than black powder. Pyrodex P mean s Pyrodex Pistol the TC Renegade is not a pistol .Pyrodex P was formulated fffg for use in short barreled pistols it has a faster burn rate and pistols fire lighter loads and generally have a faster twist Pyrodex P will also produce higher pressures not desirable for good accuracy or safety especially with heavy rifle charges .Try Pyrodex RS (rifle/shotgun ) start with 60 grains 495 ball 010 patch or a 490 ball 015 patch or do the same thing with black powder 2 ffg Last but very important never excead manufactures recommended max loads in your rifles case recommended service load between 60 &80 grains

 

[Grenadier1758]

Pyrodex is measured by volume. Use a black powder volume measure to make a load for your rifle. I much prefer real black powder to the substitutes such as Pyrodex or Triple Seven.

 

[Jimbrynn]

so, I have been giving my arm a workout! I have been swabbing the barrel with a bronze brush, then with a cleaning jig that is wrapped in very fine steel wool soaked in Hoppes No. (then cleaning with a bunch of patches soaked in hoppes No. 9, followed by a cleaning dry patch. I must have worked that brush and steel wool over 300 Times. It’s looks a lot better, but I think that is lead that is still showing up in the video? I watched a video that tested 9 different lead solvents, and hoppes No. 9 scored the highest among the ones they tested...so I gave it a run for its money!

I feel like I have made significant progress today thanks to you guys. The barrel is much much cleaner. But, if that is indeed lead, how do I get the rest out??

I heard mention that people are using some sort of electric current rod and liquid that pulls the lead out of the barrel??

advice?

 

[skoda]

You still have leading from that last picture.

I have the electrical device Outers Foul Out. You plug the nipple hole, fill the bore with a special fluid for lead (they have another for copper), put a rod down the bore, hook it up with a couple of alligator clips, and then plug it in and wait many hours. It will get lead out but not all of it. It will weaken the lead so you can go back with the scrubber brushes and get most of it out. Then maybe a second time with the electro device and the scrubber of your choice.

You could also try using a strong vinegar (find it in cooking specialty shops, not your local grocer) which will turn the lead into lead acetate which is EXTREMELY TOXIC so you have to use rubber gloves and pour the used solution into a special container for proper disposal, not your sink drain. If that works spend the money for the electrical device for the next time. Lead acetate is nothing to mess around with.

You need a different lube to keep that leading down but others can better recommend one than me.

 

[Jimbrynn]

in the past, I was told to use boiling hot soapy water, and a bronze brush and scrub the dickens out of the barrel.. I would repeat this many times...at the time I was just doing what I was told. But it seems like the boiling hot water might soften the lead enough to allow the brush to remove it?

 

[rodclark091]

So, I just bought a TC renegade that has barely been shot, but I have accuracy issues. the gun does have the QLA system.

I set the gun up with a 1x thompson center scope and was shooting 80 grains of 3f pyrodex and using the Thompson center 370 grain maxiball. for a while it was shooting well, but now its all over the place....very weird.

At first, I thought it was the scope, so I rechecked everything, and even put on a different scope. At 25 yards, I could not even hit the paper with a bore sighted gun!

After a few shots, it seemed to stay on paper, but my 7 shot group at 25 yards was 15 inches... not good.

I decided to reduce the charge to 70 grains, and the gun shot better. Then went to 60 grains and the group tighten up to a 3 inch group At 25 yards.

I just cant figure out why the 80 grain load 2 weeks ago shot so well, and now it will not even hit paper....unless I reduce the charge....

here is what I know

26 inch barrel
1:48 twist
370 grain maxi ball
3f pyrodex
Magnum percussion caps

Am I doing something wrong?

Do you guys have any advice that might help this gun shoot more accurately? Powder? Bullet type/weight? Percussion cap?

thanks in advance. Jim

Wrap the slug in thin paper and will improve accuracy

 

[Griz44Mag]

Get some Butch's bore shine and use it to remove all those lead globs from the bore. Soak it and let it sit awhile.
You will get colored patches out of the barrel. Keep it up until there is no more color.
For that particular rifle, a round ball with a patch is a great choice.
You won't get the lead globs that appear to be all over your barrel now.
If you insist on shooting conicals, start using a paper patch or a much better lube for the bullets.
It does not appear the bore is damaged, just junked up with scrapped or maybe blow by bullet cutting getting ironed into the rifling.

 

[Griz44Mag]

in the past, I was told to use boiling hot soapy water, and a bronze brush and scrub the dickens out of the barrel.. I would repeat this many times...at the time I was just doing what I was told. But it seems like the boiling hot water might soften the lead enough to allow the brush to remove it?

Hot water will not soften lead. Use a good lead solvent like Butch's Bore shine.

 

[Carbon 6]

All this work won't permanently fix your problem. The QLA rifling isn't deep enough for maxi balls, and the bore diameter is getting larger. You really need a re-bore, or make a new barrel. Me, I'd do both, have this barrel bored smooth and a new one made.
That's my opinion, it's free.